I'm considering adding a second (2nd) level to My N Scale layout. My current benchwork in 2"x4" supports, 1/4" plywood, 2 inch foamboard and wood scenics track-bed. What would be the distance between the top of rail and the underside of the second level benchwork? Since I'mconsidering the bench work to 1"x3" or 1"x4" boards, 1/4" plywood, 2 inch foamboard nad the woodland scenics trackbed. I would appreicate any information provided.
2x4 supports is ultra strong but only 1/4-inch plywood - wouldn't that be prone to sagging? I'd have gone with 1/2 inch. Anyway...
You want as much distance between the rails and the underside as you can manage for accessibility. I went with 8 inches distance only because of my small room and not wanting to use a helix (went with a nolix and 2.9% grade on my HO layout). That was against most recommendations btw - most recommended 14 to 16 inches clearance.
What is the depth of your benchwork? That is a factor too. If it is deep, then you'll want more clearance.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
The depth of the benchwork is eighteen (18) inches. I have spaced 2"x4" sixteen (16) inches apart, Just as I had built a normal house wall. The entire benchwork is built around the basement walls, except for a couple of peninsulas. The upper deck will built with 1"x3" or 1"x4" also spaced at sixteen (16) inches just as the lower level benchwork.
Verticle Clearances? Check them out for yourself.
You need room for your equipment to pass under a Tortoise machine. But most of all, you need room for your FINGERS to work in there. Work is NEVER done.
On the Helix:
ROAR
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It depends.
How much vertical clearance do you want/need from the lower level rail height to the bottom of the upper level benchwork? What will "look good" to you? What will be functional for you? Sometimes you have to mock up some test/temp benchwork do figure out what you need and like.
How will trains get from the lower level to the upper level? Helix? Nolix?
My current HO layout under construction has 20" (nominal) railhead to railhead distance between the three levels (42", 62", 82"). This leaves about ~16.5" (1x3 (2.5") + 3/4" subroadbed + 3/16" roadbed) or ~18" (5/8" plywood + 1" foam + 3/16 roadbed) vertical clearance between the lower and middle levels (not counting the shelf brackets that support the middle level).
Modeling an HO gauge freelance version of the Union Pacific Oregon Short Line and the Utah Railway around 1957 in a world where Pirates from the Great Salt Lake founded Ogden, UT.
- Photo album of layout construction -
Thank You for Your Reply! A lot of information supplied to Me.
The best advice I found when trying to answer this question for myself came from Tony Koester's book on designing and building mutli-deck layouts. Tony suggested sticking up some adjustable shelves, placing some structures and rolling stock on it and experiment.
You'll find that eve level has the biggest impact. I have a "swivel chair" level and a "bar stool" level. Both of them end up just a few inches below eye level so I can get by with lower than average clearance.
In your case, with 18" shelves, if you operate standing you'll find that substantial clearance is required to see the back of the lower level. Consider whether or not the upper lever needs to be full depth as this can have a significant impact.
Try the mock ups with the adjustable shelves. You'll learn far more from that than you can here.
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1/4" ply with 2" foam underneath, if it's glued together, won't sag. That was my previous layout, each section was a 4 foot box with one center crossmember, so mine was only supported on 2' centers. 1/4" ply was screwd to the frame and then I glued the foam on and weighted it for a few days. In retrospect I would have skipped the ply, caulk holds switch motors to the 2" foam just fine.
I would not use the foam as a base for a multi-deck layout, it's just too thick and wastes a lot of space - if you have 14" railhead to railhead clearance, you have less than 12" between the bottom of the upper deck and the rails of the lowe rdeck, after you subtract the 2" foam, the 1/4" plywood, and whatever roadbed you are using. Plus any framing.
Alternately, do like Bill Darnaby and make simple brackets and use JUST foam, if you have enough distance to get a good separation between layers.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
A slightly off topic, but hopefullu relevant thought.
If you are having multiple operators, or frequent visitors, are you allowing enough people space in the aisles?
Dave
Oh Yes, the aisle space between the peninsulas is three (3) feet min.
Mine is HO scale, with between 20" and 24" between the top surfaces of the lower and upper levels. I used 5/8" tongue & groove sheathing plywood for the upper level. The framing is 1"x2" pine except at the front, where it's 1"x4" to accommodate electrical switches. I'm using cork roadbed for the mainline, with all other track directly on the plywood.
Layout depth varies from 21"-36", with the upper level as deep as or deeper than the lower.The upper level framing is screwed to the wall joists, with additional support provided by wall brackets made of 1 1/2" angle iron, welded together and lag-bolted into the wall studs.
Wayne
Wayne,
Why is the fascia of the upper level so tall? It looks like it really unnecessarily reduces the view/accessibility of the lower level?
c&oj3a604 Oh Yes, the aisle space between the peninsulas is three (3) feet min.
On my 30 inch aisles, the operating plan calls for run thrus or nothing on one side, while operating the other, and good friends operating together.
If at all possible I recommend 4' aisles as much of the time as possible.
davidmurray A slightly off topic, but hopefullu relevant thought. If you are having multiple operators, or frequent visitors, are you allowing enough people space in the aisles? Dave
90% of my aisles will be 4+ ft wide. There is one 30" wide chokepoint going up the steps into the center platform (inside the mushroom) for viewing the upper level.
Onewolf Why is the fascia of the upper level so tall? It looks like it really unnecessarily reduces the view/accessibility of the lower level?
I deliberately made the fascia deep to hide the undermounted fluorescent lights. The lower level is normally operated from a rolling office chair, which does improve the visibility.
The portion to the left in the photo below appears to be even more restricted - the lower level there is about 2" higher than that to the right - but it's fully in view when the operator there is seated.
It is, however, a restriction when trying to operate ground throws near the rear of the layout or those behind structures, and I'll have to modify them so that they can be operated at the lower fascia instead.
Wayne, thanks for the explanation. It makes more sense since it's designed to be operated from a rolling chair.
Regardless of the scale you model in, the scale of your hand doesn't change. So you need a minimum of 5" reach-in clearance above the top of your cars. The height of N scale rolling stock averages 1-1/4", so I'd say at least 6-1/2" from railhead to bottom of upper deck benchwork.
Now, that applies only to a non-scenicked, non-visible deck, like hidden staging. If you want people to be able to see what's going on, you'll need more clearance. As a rule of thumb, I'd go with a minimum of 1 foot plus half the width of the upper shelf. So if your upper shelf is 12" wide, it should be 18" above the lower deck. If it's 2 feet wide, give yourself 2 feet clearance. And so on.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steve... the "scale of hand" or "scale of arm" is kind of how I tried to figure in my clearance so I could reach in to re-rail in my staging built over. I wanted to minimize my no-lix grade while still manage to be able to reach over trains to get at trains in the rear. It's about that 5-inches over the top of trains, barely. So it's tight and far from ideal and I know I won't like it and well, hopefully won't be in this house much more than a few more years so it's a smallish layout just to tied me over for a while.
To add to Steve's suggestions, if your lower level is to be sceniced, either as a staging yard or a part of the layout proper, finish it as much as possible before beginning installation of the upper level, as access may be more restricted than you imagined.Another drawback to having a second level is that it may restrict photo opportunities somewhat. Compare this photo, taken with the camera on the layout, before the upper level was in place....
...with this one taken a few minutes ago:
The wooden clouds can be cropped out, of course, but on some shots, that may not be possible. The upper level also restricts camera placement for taking on-layout photos. Such photos on an around-the-walls layout can give you views otherwise impossible to see. Here's one such photo taken before the second level was added. The train and large building visible between the handcar shed and water tower are on the portion of the layout on the opposite side of the aisle...yeah, the layout fascia is visible and it's not really much of a picture anyway ....
Here's the same view, taken a few minutes ago from roughly the same position. Again, not much of a photo and the background across the aisle has changed. The fascia across the aisle is still visible, but now we also get a look at the back side of the upper level fascia on this side :
To kind of echo Mr. Otte's comment, here's a way to visualize everything. Kitchen cabinets are standard depth of 24" with 18" between upper and lower cabinets. Wall or upper cabinets are standard depth of 12". So, standing in your kitchen, your countertop will be right about 36" off he floor. You can look at that and see how that will look and how accessible that is. From the 18" distance between cabinets as you go out from the wall beyond 12" you might wish to consider adding basically 1" up per 1" out. I'm probably not being very clear, but I think you can get the idea. Hope it helps.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
Taking a tip I first saw in a photo in an issue of Model Railroad Planning, do wha STeve King did get a cheap bookshelf (tall one) and play around with different levels by adjusting the shelves and setting some equipment on them, and structures. See what works for you.