Hey!
I'm in the process of building a layout and I have done benchwork, added the foam subroadbed and now I am doing track work according to plan.
And it hit me: Am I building the layout I want? Have I thought of all the details? What if I don't like it in the end?
This is my 3rd layout. The first two were more tests, now I am building the real thing, taking my time and all. Are those doubts normal, should I stop and rethink everything over?
Thanks for your input.
Antoine
Normal.
Unfortunately sometimes you don't know you are in the wrong place until you get there. Sometimes you just want a change. Sometimes people like the journey more than the destination.
The most critical thing to figure out is what you like or what you don't like. then how to get more of the like and less of the don't like. If you like to change themes and eras a lot, then probably a huge L-Girder benchwork, handlaid track layout with scratchbuilt cars and engines is not your best path. I have read a couple UK/European forums and the fascinating thing is they often build very small layouts (1 ft x 6 ft) that only have a lifespan of a year or so or might build 2 or 3 different small layouts and rotate them.
If you are really changeable, join a modular club and then just build a 2x4 module. You can complete it quick and then if you decide to change its easy to strip off and do some other theme.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Some comments, just my take and for what it's worth:
First, concider your options; e.g., continue and see what you enjoy and learn from this layout (perhaps some day there will be another so this one need not be ideal), take a break (maybe build some freight car kits, sturctures or other diversions) and think it through in a more relaxed way), modify the plan (if practical) to soften some potential weaknesses / concerns, or proceed and enjoy it the best you can (the process and the end result).
Being an engineer, I'd sit down and make a list of criteria: what are the important ones, and how would you weight (highest, middle or lower) each option against each of those criteria. Going through a structured decision process would help clarify issues and which option seems best for you. And you don't need to decide overnight...get comfortable with your decision.
Nothing you design will turn out ideally. There will be hindsight, fodder for next, more ideal (for you) layout.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
I agree with the replies. Every new layout, no matter how close I come to my list of gotta-haves, teaches me something new. Last time it was a helix. I had a substantial set of hills and tunnels on layout #2 that taught me not to hide the trains so much. I opted for a helix on layout #3, thinking I would solve that problem by making 80% of the hidden trackage in the helix. Turns out that, while a helix has advantages, and is a fun challenge to erect properly so that your trains work well in them, they still mostly hide your trains for quite a chunk of enjoyment time at scale speeds. I'm seriously considering reverting back to the folded loop of layout #2. I will be more creative about hiding the tracks, but minimizing hiding the trains.
There are no shortcuts, but few more effective uses of your time and money than plodding through some strict planning and honesty. As the previous poster suggests, you should quickly determine what bottom-line elements must be included in your plan. Then, you build a track plan and supporting bench that permits you to enjoy the results.
As you complete substantial sections of your plan, you should begin to test the rails with your rolling stock. Forward, reversing, shoving, and trailing all combinations of rolling stock and engines to ensure nothing snags, swipes, knocks over, derails, uncouples, spins when it gets hung up on a high point, poor transition curve, or bad joint, etc.
The last thing I would like to impart to you is that very often experience is going to be your only teacher. What I mean is that you learn by doing, not by not doing. You must make each layout honestly, and profit from the lessons each of them teaches you. Just try not to forget the important lessons. Record them in a layout planning journal.
Antoine L. I'm in the process of building a layout and I have done benchwork, added the foam subroadbed and now I am doing track work according to plan. And it hit me: Am I building the layout I want? Have I thought of all the details? What if I don't like it in the end?
Rich
Alton Junction
Just remember you can fix anything, had to do a few myself.
Doubts are normal. The question is whether they are significant or not.
Consider: If you continue, and some nagging voice about the nature of the layout ends up coalescing into an operational issue, you've learned something. You then might be able to find a way to fix it.
On the other hand, that nagging voice may turn out to be indicative of nothing, and everything works fine.
Realize, also, that other people have done this, and it isn't because it is as easy as connecting the dots for them. My current layout, I'm having to re-level the track areas before I apply the trackbed, because ridges in the plaster cloth have altered the landscape sufficiently. Did I do the plaster cloth wrong? Can I fix this? The only way through is to go forward. It will be figured out.
Doubts? Wow, I can TOTALLY relate! About 2 years ago, I had my track laid, and was about as ready to start on scenery as I was going to get. One night I was looking at the track on one end of the layout, a 10 by 20 around the room plan, realizing I'd known deep down inside for a while I didn't like how it worked. (the design, not the actual trackwork) But, with so much work into it, I couldn't tear it out and redo it. Especially with hand laid turnouts and track mostly glued down with liquid nails...But I didn't like it... But all that work... But I didn't like it. Talk about yer doubts?
Well that lasted a few minutes, I faced the facts, and out came the rippin' tools! Had to be done.
Over the next few months that end of the layout, and more was reworked, to a plan much closer to what I liked. I lived with it a while, and discovered there was one thing about the plan that was not good, a too steep of a long grade going to a hopper unloading dump on which the trains didn't behave well. Out it came. That grade became a much needed automobile road, a huge improvement for the whole theme of the layout.
A few months later I added another feature that I'd never thought of before. A visible continuous loop that allows trains to circle the layout in plain sight. (Hidden stage tracks are still in them there hills) This evolution continued, the refinements got smaller. I'd say about 60% of the layout track got revised. I'm glad I had my doubts. BUT! (And this is the main point of the reply) I also know I had to build it in the first place to get there. My doubts were based on what was actually working well on an operating layout, and what proved to need changed.
Now I'm quite happy with what's there, as far as track plan is concerned. And as I'm now getting into scenery, I'm allowing room to let preconceived ideas be changed as the eye sees the need to do so.
One thing I learned, DON'T GLUE TRACK DOWN until you are sure the layout flows for you the way you want it. Tack it.
Unlike so many in this hobby, I really, REALLY don't enjoy sitting down and trying to draw up track planning! I almost hate it, but I've never seen a published plan that suited my wants. But at least I do enjoy track laying and every other aspect of the hobby. That made this hard earned developement more bearable.
Another thing, also unlike many, I'm not going to "finish" this layout and tear it out and start another. This one is for life, however long that may be. It's taken years just to get to the point of starting scenery! I'm slow, I know, but that's why it's important to have a design I can live with satisfactorily.
I didn't mean to get so blabby, but this topic hits home hard with me. I encourage you to plan the best you can, build the layout, and make changes as you see fit until you have it the way you want it. Dan
SouthgateOne thing I learned, DON'T GLUE TRACK DOWN until you are sure the layout flows for you the way you want it. Tack it.
Thats why I use Atlas track nails to hold my track down - they aren't much thicker than a straight pin although they are a little shorter. If you aren't happy you can simply pull them out with needle nose plyers.
Just the most recent example of using track nails or spikes being really useful. My sump pump failed a couple weeks ago while I was out of town so my wife and I had to rip out the laminate flooring in one basement room and the rug under the layout in the train room, probably half of the rug got wet there. I've removed two of the benchwork modular sections while I'm working on the basement floor and some of the drywall cut out.
Yet once again, case in point, I had to remove some of the track while I'm working on the floor and drywall and having not glued the track down it was easy for me to pull the nails out and remove the modulear benchwork sections (two of them), which I can put back in a few weeks and relay the track.
Everyone is really enamored with adhesives these days but I keep finding myself really glad I used Atlas track nails and spikes. Over and over it's saved my back side not having to remove track that has been glued down. I'm really glad of it.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
dehusman Normal. Unfortunately sometimes you don't know you are in the wrong place until you get there. Sometimes you just want a change. Sometimes people like the journey more than the destination. The most critical thing to figure out is what you like or what you don't like. then how to get more of the like and less of the don't like. If you like to change themes and eras a lot, then probably a huge L-Girder benchwork, handlaid track layout with scratchbuilt cars and engines is not your best path. I have read a couple UK/European forums and the fascinating thing is they often build very small layouts (1 ft x 6 ft) that only have a lifespan of a year or so or might build 2 or 3 different small layouts and rotate them. If you are really changeable, join a modular club and then just build a 2x4 module. You can complete it quick and then if you decide to change its easy to strip off and do some other theme.
He is right you may not know you dont like it untill your there. I hade the same thoughts and i waited an extra month looking at other trackplans. Also good luck on your 3 model railroad.
Hi everyone,
I greatly appreciate all your comments and experiences. I feel better now that I know this is something relatively common to doubt what you're doing. Even if this is my third layout, I am trying many new things (Swinging gate, hidden grades, 90° crossings, foam subroadbed, etc.)
I used to work directly on plywood before.
Also, I decided to use caboose industries ground throws. I want to go for ring engineering Railpro instead of pure DC.
I can't say I bit more than I can chew, I think I can chew everything but maybe, like some of you said, I need to calm down and look and think. I've started to build two months ago and I work on the layout around 20 hours a week, + I work full time. That may be a source of doubt when you work too fast.
If you have more experiences to share, please do, I really value those.
LIONS do not have doubts. They have nice furry paws with claws and a wonderful tail.
LION says BUILD the dang layout already. Of course there are things that you will not like about it and things you would have done differently. That is a given and applies to all facets of existance. Do not let that stop you or slow you down, otherwise you will never build anything.
LION has ripped out and replaced more track on this layout of him than you could possibly immagine. And him has rewired it at least four times. It is a good thing that the LION likes building the layout, him will probably be bored stiff if him ever finishes it. (NOT)
Just do it, you can make changes later, and some of the changes that I would now want to make cannot be done. I'll just have to live with it. I had a certain criteria when I built this layout: It would depict NORMAL operations of the subway, and there were no pockets for work trains to disappear into to allow a pax train to pass. Me Baaaad. So what. It will do 90% of what I want, and that will have to be good enough.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
One key fact about, "Is it what I REALLY want?"
Building a model railroad isn't like cutting a diamond. You can go back, tear out and redo. Even a layout built on L (actually C) girders can have roadbed stripped off and risers adjusted. One thing about laying flex track with latex caulk is that it can be lifted - just a little friendly persuasion with a drywall knife and it comes right up.
Actually, re-doing less than perfect work is done all the time by our full-size brethren. Adjust curvature, daylight a tunnel, build a better bridge, even open a new route several (or several hundred) miles removed from the original. Just look at a satellite view of the UP through Wyoming or the BNSF between Seligman and east of Williams in Northwestern Arizona. Plenty of evidence of roadbed that used to have track on it. The new work has wider curves, more consistent grades and a lot more earthmoving (thanks to modern construction machinery.)
A key element in the planning process, and can be applied in retrospect, is to develop what John Armstrong called, "Givens and druthers." Givens are the physical limitations of the layout space (and the modeler, darn it!) Druthers are what the owner wants, listed in order of importance. It's a lot easier to hit your desired target when you paint a bullseye on it.
So what about the cat under my hat? I'm working (Slo-o-owly) to a master plan that had half a century to set - and still find myself making changes. The most recent had me eliminate a tunnel, turn a ridge into a canyon and move my 'gotta havit' bridge from one end of the Haruyama station to the other. Looks better, works better - win/win.
Don't be afraid that the first iteration might not be perfect. Just don't be afraid to change it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - flexibly)
tomikawaTT One thing about laying flex track with latex caulk is that it can be lifted - just a little friendly persuasion with a drywall knife and it comes right up.
I never tried caulk. I used liquid nails, applied it too heavily, and that was on Micro Engineering flex track. That's a bad combination! Whatever you do make sure it's reworkable.
Antoine L.And it hit me: Am I building the layout I want? Have I thought of all the details? What if I don't like it in the end?
Oh yeah! Even on my small ISLs (1'x10' or 1' x12') I ask those question.
I'm not above stopping in midstream and moving the track around until I like what I see and then spike or glue it in place..
The reason is simple I really hate rework since that amounts to two things 1: wasted work and 2: doing rework takes longer to finish the layout so I can get into my favorite part, operation...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Its okay to adjust the trackwork and deviate from the plan as you go, as long as the basic shape of the plan isn't altered too much. Seeing things in the flesh sometimes provides better angles for track, scenery and buildings that may not be apparent on a plan.
I think planning is really about making sure everything fits...radii and turnouts...but final positioning of track is often done on the fly, IMO.
- Douglas
That is why I built mine on foam. You T-pin it and run a test, center mark the track, take up and run your cork, when dry caulk the track to the cork (clear only). Curve needs to be tweeked, run a drywall tool under the track, ajust and T-pin in new location and spot glue with ACC (this held for over a year then I ballasted). Want to add something like a siding later, no problem, just cut it in, much easier before ballasting but not bad after, just added another siding to my finished ballasted mainline. Best advice for track planning, plan your main line, put in mainline turnouts where you know you want them and don't worry about the rest, for now. Get it up and running and then see if your plans will work for switching, need another mainline switch, just cut it in.
The opposite problem is "analysis paralysis." Sufferers plan and study, discard and re-plan and then plan some more. They never get started. I was in this boat for a while, but I finally bought lumber and started building, and I'm glad I did. You don't have to build what you've drawn out. Thinks look different in wood and foam than they do on paper, and it's perfectly fine to change things as you're building.
I like to lay my track first with paper clips, un-bent into a long U shape. This pokes easily into pink foam, an the end of the U fits right over an HO-scale tie. It's firm enough to hold curved flex track in place, and solid enough to last for years. In fact, some of my "test configurations" did last for years, right up until the day I glued them in place and ballasted them.
Are you still building the St. Lawrence and Atlantic? Here's the South Paris station, which is now "Norway Soft Serve," an ice cream stand.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Antoine: For me (and for others, it appears), the "final" layout configuration evolves over time. I've been working on the same layout for 15 years. The original design was for operations by one or two people. Over time, I discovered that I wanted to operate with more folks and so the layout has evolved, with changes and additions to better meet my desires. I've torn out and relaid the main yard, added a penisula for engine servicing reconfigured a secondary town, added sidings, added an entirely unexpected 12' by 18" addition when real estate became available, added 6 staging tracks, etc, etc. And there's more changes on the drawing board. That yard STILL doesn't work quite the way it should. All these changes were in response to identified aspects where the layout fell short, but the need for most of them could not have been anticipated when the layout was first built. All of it's fixable. It's supposed to be a long, strange trip. Just enjoy the journey. And remember, when there's nothing left to do, just smile, smile, smile! Joel
I'll follow most if not all your advices. I have been working on the layout in the last days and summer vacations are starting this friday. I plan on taking pictures of my progress.
Perhaps I could show you some so you can give some more advice. I will try to make my track plan digital too, for comments and suggestions.
Thanks.
Here is my plan.
I hope it makes sense to you, it does to me.
It is 12x12, + the hidden annex in the other room, on the right, that other room is also where I work and paint stuff.
My own spagetthi bowl, haha. I'll try to post pictures of the actual thing, this week-end.
EDIT: I forgot to draw 3 tunnel portals.
If you build it , it will run. Hopefully how you like. If not tear out those parts that bother you. But build! It's the only way to really know. I've been building and changing for ten years. Loving every minute of it. Benchwork is put together with wood screws and track is nailed down. Don't stress. After all we are just playing with trains.
Phil, CEO, Eastern Sierra Pacific Railroad. We know where you are going, before you do!
I can relate! I've had my layout torn up twice from the original design. Thankfully, all of this was done before I considered any scenery (except for the backdrop, which was already up before laying track) On this third design, I expanded my layout, but decided that the switching on the original layout was way too complicated; it just had to be changed. The track is all laid again now and wired up and I'm presently building the new control panel for it. Naturally, after over two years of not having trains running (and several new locomotive acquisitions in the mean time), I'm chomping at the bit to run again. Doubts, yeah, I've had a few!
One thing that never changes on a layout is change. Had my turntable set in place as per my plan when I discovered I have to move it because of a scenery change. Everything has been going good until I gave myself this head scratcher. One change leads to another and another and.......
Don't sweat the little things or the big ones for that matter, just change it!
God's Best & Happy Rails to You!
Bing (RIPRR The Route of the Buzzards)
The future: Dead Rail Society
Hi! I'm new around here... so I'm reading up on a lot of posts before I start asking my own questions. ;)I totally get where you are coming from. I've been in 'planning paralysis' for a looong time. I have an 18'x13' space that I've wanted to develop for years. (My first layout was, like many, a single sheet of plywood.)The doubts are TOTALLY normal. But don't let 'em stop you like I did. I just started creating a track-plan again, and have framers coming in to close off the space. The excitment in the house is palpable. ;)
All the best! Keep at it!
CK
Mister Beasley, I have a copy of an article written by Bram Bailey entitled, "The South Paris Switcher". Is your layout based on this article, by chance?
Bentley
Hi, here are pictures of my progress.
And pictures from today. I painted the room and backdrop.
Nice to finish an area to inspire you, looks great so far!!!!!!!!!