All my turnouts are Peco code 83 Insulfrog. With one exception I operate them using Caboose Industries 218S ground throws or yellow-painted bamboo skewers with blunted tips shortened to 4". The one exception is the #4 wye which because of its location needs to be remotely operated. To accomplish this, I built a crank linkage arm to move the turnout throwbar. I drilled a 1/16" hole between the rails about 1/2" ahead of the throwbar hole and inserted into it a length of 1/16" brass tubing, .014" wall thickness (K & S #8125). Taking a length of K & S #501 .032" Steel Music Wire, I bent the tip to fit into the throwbar hole, then bent it to fit into the brass tubing, and finally bent it parallel with the roadbed underneath. The result: a smoothly operating throw mechanism that makes a satisfying snap when it goes home (just like the real thing). The tubing is a perfect bearing surface for that diameter wire. The tubing should be long enough so that the music wire just clears the top of the ties and clears the underside of the benchwork. The wire is quite unobtrusive-looking but finishing it with grimy black or RR tie brown makes it virtually invisible. To finish the job, I bent a loop in another piece of wire, slipped the loop over the crank linkage, ran it through a length of tubing epoxied to the underside of my layout, brought it out to the edge, attached a pull to it and I was done with my remote control.
Aha, you ask, where did I ever get the clever idea for this? Simple, both Micro-Mark's Switch Tender Switch Machine and Builder in Scale's Switchmaster Switch Machine both recommend this proceedure for mounting their devices on turnouts already in place.
Which brings us to the heart of the matter. Lately, I've been thinking that I'd like to have the option of utilizing electric switch machines. I can visualize different scenarios: replacing all the CI groundthrows with say scale non-operating NJ International types for greater realism; putting all the turnout contols together on one panel for an "ersatz" ctc system; or just reducing the amount of running around that has to be done. If I did decide to do this, I would only consider using these switch machines (or any other similar ones) that did not require me to remove my already in place turnouts to drill out holes to clear the machine levers.
I would very much appreciate any comments or advice from those of you who have had experience with these machines. I know they are both slow motion, stall motor types. The Micro-Mark requires a 12V supply and the Builders in Scale a 3V supply but they supply resistors to enable a 12V supply to be used. In any case the power supply is not a problem nor is the crank linkage as you have already seen. I look forward to any responses you might have.
The Peco turnouts have a spring which holds the points against the stock rails, and that's what produces that satisfying snap when they flip over. The only twin-coil switch machine that has the power to work with that spring is the Peco machine. Most users who want slow motion machines remove the spring. I've never done that myself, but perhaps someone who has will let us know how easy it is to remove the spring from an installed turnout.
The Peco machine is designed to mount from below the turnout, so it would be best to remove the turnout, which I guess you don't want to do. (I certainly agree with that preference.) Peco makes some side-mount brackets, but again, I've never tried them.
Pretty much everyone who uses Peco twin-coil machines also uses a capacitive discharge unit to drive them, as they need the extra kick to get the power to overcome the spring. If you have any twin-coils, a CD circuit is a must-have, as it also protects the machines in the event of a sticky toggle switch.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
IIRC, to take the spring out, you access it from underneath the turnout on the Peco.
I had the same problem, but not with Peco turnouts. The first part of the current layout was built as a module with Shinohara turnouts controlled by Caboose throws.As the town built up, it was more difficult for shorter operatos to reach over without snagging. I used a bit designed for flush cutting and drilled up from the bottom to install Tortoises, sliding a metal shim under the throwbar to protect it and putting a piece of tape on the bit to let me know I was getting close to break through. Still mangled the heck out of one, but got better as I went along.
Doesn't really help the OP, though. It may be a case where it's best to bite the bullet and take them up to get it right, since the Peco needs bottom access to resolve this.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thanks for your reply MisterBeasley. Are you saying that neither the Switchmaster nor the Switch Tender machines have enough power to throw the Peco turnouts unless I remove the springs? I didn't know this was necessary as a general rule.
I'm not familiar with those machines, so I can't say. You won't, though, get the slow motion that is characteristic of stall motors. Instead, the tension on the shaft will build up and then suddenly snap over, assuming the machines are strong enough to do this.
So does anyone have a link to a CD circuit I can build myself?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Daywhitemtns All my turnouts are Peco code 83 Insulfrog. With one exception I operate them using Caboose Industries 218S ground throws or yellow-painted bamboo skewers with blunted tips shortened to 4". The one exception is the #4 wye which because of its location needs to be remotely operated. To accomplish this, I built a crank linkage arm to move the turnout throwbar. I drilled a 1/16" hole between the rails about 1/2" ahead of the throwbar hole and inserted into it a length of 1/16" brass tubing, .014" wall thickness (K & S #8125). Taking a length of K & S #501 .032" Steel Music Wire, I bent the tip to fit into the throwbar hole, then bent it to fit into the brass tubing, and finally bent it parallel with the roadbed underneath. The result: a smoothly operating throw mechanism that makes a satisfying snap when it goes home (just like the real thing). The tubing is a perfect bearing surface for that diameter wire. The tubing should be long enough so that the music wire just clears the top of the ties and clears the underside of the benchwork. The wire is quite unobtrusive-looking but finishing it with grimy black or RR tie brown makes it virtually invisible. To finish the job, I bent a loop in another piece of wire, slipped the loop over the crank linkage, ran it through a length of tubing epoxied to the underside of my layout, brought it out to the edge, attached a pull to it and I was done with my remote control. Aha, you ask, where did I ever get the clever idea for this? Simple, both Micro-Mark's Switch Tender Switch Machine and Builder in Scale's Switchmaster Switch Machine both recommend this proceedure for mounting their devices on turnouts already in place. Which brings us to the heart of the matter. Lately, I've been thinking that I'd like to have the option of utilizing electric switch machines. I can visualize different scenarios: replacing all the CI groundthrows with say scale non-operating NJ International types for greater realism; putting all the turnout contols together on one panel for an "ersatz" ctc system; or just reducing the amount of running around that has to be done. If I did decide to do this, I would only consider using these switch machines (or any other similar ones) that did not require me to remove my already in place turnouts to drill out holes to clear the machine levers. I would very much appreciate any comments or advice from those of you who have had experience with these machines. I know they are both slow motion, stall motor types. The Micro-Mark requires a 12V supply and the Builders in Scale a 3V supply but they supply resistors to enable a 12V supply to be used. In any case the power supply is not a problem nor is the crank linkage as you have already seen. I look forward to any responses you might have.
The builder in scale switch motor are made by Hankcraft display motor and are more affordable; I use them on my Nscale layout whith some still remaining Peco turnouts.
These motors are powerful but you need to remove the spring from the Peco turnouts, the torque is not enough to jump the sping action.
The Micro Mark swicth tender suffer probably from the same problem.
I had used the tube and the loop system but they need a lot of adjustements and the wire arm need to be extremly well positionned to avoid any future stress on the trowbar of the turnout.
Good luck
Use the switchmasters and remove the springs. I have around 70 of these machines installed on my layout and there are several hundred in use on layouts in my area. Switch tenders have a much higher stall current and that makes them less desirable.
I use wood screws under the layout as stops to limit the throw range so as not to overstress the points.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
MisterBeasley Pretty much everyone who uses Peco twin-coil machines also uses a capacitive discharge unit to drive them, as they need the extra kick to get the power to overcome the spring. If you have any twin-coils, a CD circuit is a must-have, as it also protects the machines in the event of a sticky toggle switch.
I'm not sure about this. I have a cdu and had a sticky toggle. When the toggle stuck power still went to the switch machine and held the points to the rail. I thInk this would still fry the switch machine.
T e d
In a properly designed CDU, the direct path from the power surce out to teh switch motors goes through a resistor which will greatly limit the current and should not burn out the coils. Yes there is power, but it is low current. The cap won;t recharge until that draw is removed, by fixing the sticky switch. Then you will get a one-time jolt on button activation followed by a steady low current if the button sticks.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Thanks to all who responded with your informative posts. The consensus seems to be that I must remove the point springs from my Peco turnouts in order to use either of the two switch motors in question but in order to do that I first have to remove the Peco turnouts from my layout.
But if I do that I wouldn't be limited to only those two machines since I could drill out a clearance hole for any other switch machine's operating lever such as a Tortoise by Circuitron.
The question then becomes, do I want to remove, modify and relay the turnouts? And the answer is ... at this point ... no, I do not. Much as I might like to try powered turnouts for reasons previously stated, since my layout is around the walls with benchwork no wider than 2', all turnouts with the exception of the aforementioned wye are easily accessible. Finally, since I've already built one remote manual control for a turnout, I may build some others as, unlike those wimpy switch machines, I have no trouble throwing the points against those pesky springs. For those of you who might be wondering why I don't use something like the Blue Point machines, the problem is they also require an elongated slot in the benchwork to move the throwbar.
Of course, in the future, I may change my mind. One never knows.
Again, thanks to all for your kind help.
Putting the Tortoise on edge:
Center the Tortoise Actuator manually, Center the switch points, and then solder this wire loop in place and it will work purrfectly.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Since you already have a remote linkage, perhaps you could use a bit more of your mechanical skills to drive that linkage with a Peco switch machine. This is what they look like:
The moving part is the tall vertical shaft rising through the center. It remains vertical and the shaft moves left to right in this picture. The top of the shaft goes through the throw bar on the turnout, and thus pushes the points back and forth.
You have built your own linkage, but at some point it still goes back and forth, right? If you were to locate that point and loop the music wire around the shaft of a Peco machine, then throwing the machine will push the linkage, and thus drive the turnout.
Daywhitemtns and Mike L.
You may not have to remove the Peco turnouts in order to remove the spring. It depends on the age of the turnout. On the older turnouts the spring is held in place by a cover that sits on top of the turnout. The cover is held in place by two metal tabs that fold over it on either side of the 'T' shaped molding. If you pry the two tabs up the cover and the spring can be removed. You can see the tabs here. They are slightly lighter in colour than the plastic cover and they sit right between the ends of the point rails:
The pictures are a bit hard to see with everything being almost the same colour, but if you study the actual turnouts the tabs should be quite recognizable.
I don't know when the change was made to mounting the springs from the bottom, and I have to qualify this by stating that my turnouts are Code 100, but before you go tearing turnouts up have a look at the spring area.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Minor matter of nomenclature. That vertical Z-wire in a tube is called an Anderson link, after Arvid Anderson, the original inventor. He used to sell them commercially while I was still modeling New York Central (1950s.)
The old KTM 2-coil switch machines (imported by Kemtron and others) have enough power to overcome the Peco spring, at the expense of huge size and need for a high-amp surge of power. They also have 3pdt contact sets. Occasionally some show up on E-bay.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Those old Kemtron twin coil (slam-bang) switch machines are so strong that they can destroy a Peco or other brand of modern day turnout.
Dave, I checked out my turnouts and they seem to be the newer style with the springs accessed from underneath but thanks for the possibility. BroadwayLion and MisterBeasley have suggested that I might adapt Circuitron or Peco machines to my mechanism by forming a loop in my crank arm and/or changing the orientation of their mounting. I would probably try the Peco machine since the consensus here seems to be that the former may not be strong enough to overcome the Peco point spring.
It occurs to me that if I formed a loop in the crank arm ~ in line with the centerhole in the throwbar, I've effectively moved the throwbar downward from between the tracks to under the benchwork and if I move the switch machine downward an equal amount I'll obtain the same result as in the normal mounting. Unless I'm missing something? However, easier said than done. Steel .032" music wire is tough to work with, tough to bend evenly especially when making small bends and when you don't want to disturb previously shaped parts of the whole. It might be easier to solder a loop onto the end but working under the benchwork also can have its problems. Well, we shall see. I'll think about how to proceed and let you know.
Again, let me thank you all for your great suggestions, I couldn't have come up with these ideas on my own.
You need to consider that the Peco switch motor does not lock into place, but relies on the turnout's built-in spring to hold the points in position.
Yes, thank you, I assumed that was the case.
I've been using Switchmasters for many years on N Scale Peco turnouts. With the N Scale turnouts, the motor is strong enough to throw the turnout with the spring still in. BUT, the stress on the plastic throw rod of the turnout (in N mind you), will eventually lead to the plastic tearing out the hole. Removing the spring reduces the pressure and eliminates the problem. Again, on N, because the throw is so short, I also install "stops" under the layout in the path of the arm to reduce the arms throw distance to just beyond far enough to throw the turnout. This also reduces the stress on the plastic tie rod. Finally, for N scale, with the spring removed, I use a bit smaller diameter wire to throw the turnout. Again, to reduce the stress on the plastic.
I was just now looking at a new, not-yet-installed Peco turnout, and I can't see why it would be necessary to remove the turnout in order to remove or disable the spring. Part of the spring is visible between the throwbar and the tie beneath the ends of the points - a slim pair of cutters or a small cut-off disc should be able to sever it at that point, disabling the spring. If you don't have such tools, use an X-Acto knife to partially cut the aforementioned tie at the point where the upturned end of the spring protrudes slightly above the tie. This should allow you to grasp the end of the spring and lift it high enough to cut off.Another method, if the surface on which the turnout is installed is hard enough or if there's room to slip a thin sheet of metal under the throwbar, is to use a X-Acto #18 chisel blade to sever the wire where it's visible. That wire is only .010" thick, and I often cut music wire of that thickness using a blade on a hard surface.Furthermore, a closer inspection shows that the upturned end of the spring in the throwbar is not in a hole, but in a slot: make the partial cut in the tie mentioned earlier, then use pliers to pull either one of the upturned spring ends towards the space between the throwbar and the point-end tie. Lift it, then repeat the operation on the other upturned end, and you should be able to lift out the entire spring.I'd try it on this one, but I intend to use it as is, without a ground throw or switch machine, and need the spring intact.
Wayne
Yeah, you can cut a spring from above on an installed Peco turnout, but then you no longer have the spring. I keep the springs in case I ever decide to sell a Peco turnout.
Rich
Alton Junction
Yeah, that's a good point, Rich. However, since the OP doesn't want to remove his turnouts to get rid of the spring, he likely won't want to remove them for any other reason either.
You can get replacement springs from Peco.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
owen w in california I've been using Switchmasters for many years on N Scale Peco turnouts. With the N Scale turnouts, the motor is strong enough to throw the turnout with the spring still in. BUT, the stress on the plastic throw rod of the turnout (in N mind you), will eventually lead to the plastic tearing out the hole. Removing the spring reduces the pressure and eliminates the problem. Again, on N, because the throw is so short, I also install "stops" under the layout in the path of the arm to reduce the arms throw distance to just beyond far enough to throw the turnout. This also reduces the stress on the plastic tie rod. Finally, for N scale, with the spring removed, I use a bit smaller diameter wire to throw the turnout. Again, to reduce the stress on the plastic.
I just do the same as you and was extremly confident whith the stress on the trowbar on my old Peco code 55.
Thank you all for the additional information. Apparently, I could remove the spring from the Peco turnout from above as some of you have mentioned and may in fact try this at some point. However, I think first I'll try putting a loop in the aforementioned crank lever I devised under the layout below the throwbar and mount a Peco switch machine far enough down to engage the loop. With the correct power supply and a capacitive discharge unit the turnout should operate properly even with the spring installed as Peco intended. If this works out without too much trouble, I may employ this method in other locations, also. When I get around to doing this I'll let you know how it worked out - or didn't as the case may be.
Again, thank you all for your great advice and suggestions. I can now more confidently move ahead with my plans.