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Frog # of a curved turnout

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Frog # of a curved turnout
Posted by subman on Sunday, November 23, 2014 9:51 PM

How do you determine the frog # of a curved turnout? If I had a turnout with a 27 inch outer radius and a 23 inch inner radius what would be the frog #?

Thanks

Bob D

Bob D As long as you surface as many times as you dive you`ll be alive to read these posts.

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Posted by carl425 on Sunday, November 23, 2014 10:12 PM

In the Walthers code 83, 20/24 is a 6.5 and 24/28 is a 7.

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Posted by subman on Sunday, November 23, 2014 10:25 PM

Thanks Carl but I`d still like to know the math of the answer. I`m talking C100 but I don`t see where the code matters.

Bob D As long as you surface as many times as you dive you`ll be alive to read these posts.

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Posted by carl425 on Monday, November 24, 2014 8:26 AM

subman
I`d still like to know the math of the answer

That's definately over my head. 

Angle between curves

Inner-product-angle.png
 

We can then formulate the concept of the angle between two curves by considering the angle between the two tangent vectors. If two curves, parametrized by f1 and f2 intersect at some point, which means that

f1(s)=f2(t)=c,

the angle between these two curves at c is the angle between the tangent vectors f1′(s) and f2′(t) is given by

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 12:25 AM

carl425
 
subman
I`d still like to know the math of the answer

 

That's definately over my head. 

Angle between curves

Inner-product-angle.png
 

We can then formulate the concept of the angle between two curves by considering the angle between the two tangent vectors. If two curves, parametrized by f1 and f2 intersect at some point, which means that

f1(s)=f2(t)=c,

the angle between these two curves at c is the angle between the tangent vectors f1′(s) and f2′(t) is given by

 

Yea, we did this stuff back in 3rd grade!

  -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by NP2626 on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 6:22 AM

farrellaa
 
carl425
 
subman
I`d still like to know the math of the answer

 

That's definately over my head. 

Angle between curves

Inner-product-angle.png
 

We can then formulate the concept of the angle between two curves by considering the angle between the two tangent vectors. If two curves, parametrized by f1 and f2 intersect at some point, which means that

f1(s)=f2(t)=c,

the angle between these two curves at c is the angle between the tangent vectors f1′(s) and f2′(t) is given by

 

 

 

Yea, we did this stuff back in 3rd grade!

  -Bob

 

Bob, Your school must have been sort a behind the times, we figured this easy stuff out in Kindergarden, where I lived! WinkWink

NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"

Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association:  http://www.nprha.org/

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Posted by farrellaa on Tuesday, November 25, 2014 10:36 PM

Geeked

NP2626
 
farrellaa
 
carl425
 
subman
I`d still like to know the math of the answer

 

That's definately over my head. 

Angle between curves

Inner-product-angle.png
 

We can then formulate the concept of the angle between two curves by considering the angle between the two tangent vectors. If two curves, parametrized by f1 and f2 intersect at some point, which means that

f1(s)=f2(t)=c,

the angle between these two curves at c is the angle between the tangent vectors f1′(s) and f2′(t) is given by

 

 

 

Yea, we did this stuff back in 3rd grade!

  -Bob

 

 

Bob, Your school must have been sort a behind the times, we figured this easy stuff out in Kindergarden, where I lived! WinkWink

 

What's kindergarden? We started out in 3rd grade!Geeked

   -Bob

Life is what happens while you are making other plans!

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:28 AM

When I fabricate a curved turnout I lay both routes with bent flex track, mark the tie lines and assemble the rails to the curves.  The only way I will ever know the frog number is if I pull it up and straighten it out.  (One, connecting two radii I now disremember, turned out to be an 8.375.)

Actually, as long as your rolling stock can run through both routes without a hiccup, the frog number is irrelevant.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on handlaid specialwork)

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Posted by gregc on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:18 PM

subman
I`d still like to know the math of the answer.

this is what I think

the first step is to locate the point of intersection.

y = (rad1^2 - rad0^2 - y1^2 + y0^2) / ((2 * (y0 - y1))

where rad0 is the radius of the outer rail of the smaller radii and rad1 the radius of the inner rail of the larger radius.   Y0 and y1 are the locations of the radii centers. (I assume the x centers are the same value (0), see figure below).

the 2nd step is to determine the angles between the point of intersection and the radii centers (yellow lines below).    The difference between these angles is the same as the difference between the angles of the tangents of the curved rails at the point of intersection.

the frog number is most accurately determined by dividing the cosine of half the angle by twice the sine of half the angle.

the following image illustrates values for various curved turnouts.  The top row is for two curves 2" apart and the bottom for curves 4" apart. The larger radius curve is in green and the other curve in red.   Yellow lines identify the angles between the curve centers and points of intersection.  The curve radii are indicated at the base of the yellow lines.  The frog number is on top.

i don't get the same values carl425 say the Walthers Catalog indicates

edit: updated drawing with corrected frog number calculation (still appears high)

greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 2:55 PM

BTW the actual frog (where the rails cross) is made of very very short sections of straight track, so it doesn't matter if the turnout is a conventional turnout or a curved turnout. The frog remains the same.

Stix
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Posted by carl425 on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 5:58 PM

wjstix
The frog remains the same.

Isn't that a Led Zeppelin song?

I have the right to remain silent.  By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.

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Posted by dante on Wednesday, November 26, 2014 11:00 PM

On Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 curved turnouts, the rails are curved through the frog.

Dante

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, November 27, 2014 5:01 AM

carl425
  
wjstix
The frog remains the same.
 

Yep.   Another good 'track' on that album is The Train Song.  

Rich

Alton Junction

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