Alas, I have very busy with lives ongoing issues of late and the PUP is takeing a back seat until later this year or early next. What I have done might get a restart as all my shelfwork is done and about 10 feet of area has been built in an effort to get something going and running to continue to inspire me. Unfortunately, I got so inspired and have done so much rethinking that a good solid redo might be in order. However I will try a post a few pix here.
Again, my era is circa 1938-1952. which is when the road was first proposed by the mining consortium to its completion in late 1941 and the shutdown of the road in 1951 with the loss of the RGS connection.
As of this moment I hope to model Paradox village (end of western part of the line), Uravan (the real big operation), the PUP railroad town of Nucla-Naturita and a limited effort at Placervile. There will be the usual small mines along the right of way ranging from 0ne and two man "dog hole" operations to still small but significant "company-run" operations.
Here are a couple of pix.
The last one is taken about in the middle of the elevated shelf layout. There is as much layout shelving behind the camera as in front. I am considering some sort of double loop now with each one having its own areas of interest. Lots of running distance in the round-th'-room shelf layout.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
NP2626
Yes very flippant.
But a good excuse to look for a load or two of unopend Tyco glow in the dark ore, and I think they did a bridge and a couple of other glow in dark acsesories that you might be able to pillage for usefull parts if you can find any.
Unfortunatly industrial history is littered with disasterouse results from variouse minerals and compounds all we can hope to do is learn from the mistakes.
regards John
John, I’m uncertain of your meaning by your use of the word Flippant in the above post? I hope that I wasn’t interpreted as being flippant in my responses about manufacturing a history to fit a person’s railroad as that was not my meaning! I am dead serious about using re-written histories to help develop a reason for a line to exist. I’m also serious about freelancing being a great way to build a model railroad.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Hi NP2626
Oh dear!! bad choice of words on my part appologies.
I doubt the unprocessed ore glowed in the dark the products made from it do
I remembered The Vulcan Vale Railway a well known in Australia. It was an Australian freelance narrow gauge model railway.
The late builder was very serious about it being a "propper" narow gauge railway
But allowed the element of fun to slip in with the purple plinker mine the ore naturaly was purple and had a what ever it was that was manufactured from the stuff this gave the railway its reason to exist.
When the glow in the dark products that where made from the ore your proposed railway was going to move where mentioned.
I imediatly thought of the Tyco glow in the dark ore as a posibilaty to represent the ore and introduce an ellement of fun.
Without taking away the serious business of building and running a propper railway.
John, I am dead serious about having fun with your railroad, in what ever way you feel fun can be had!
NP2626The actual truth of the matter (in my opinion, of course) is that all model railroads are "free lanced” Even those who tout how closely their layout is to the prototype, must take huge liberties with the distances their trains travel. I see nothing wrong with using imagination to fill in blank spots; or, embellishing a particular location to better suit our needs. This is a hobby, something where we can use our imagination and artistic abilities to express ourselves.
I agree. Whatever else we may think, every one of us is on the same slippery slope away from the actual prototype. Interestingly, Tony Koester's Dec. 2014 collumn in MR addresses this in discussing the impact of RTR on the hobby. His take is similar to mine in that he sees realistic operations as the real goal in order to ensure "the future of the hobby." Thus RTR cars "are supporting this increased interest in adding value to our models by operating as realistically as they appear."
Where I disagree with Tony's formulation is that operations are the ultimate goal of the hobby. They certainly are for many of us. But I think Tony ignores the way in which prototype modeling has become an end in itself. The RPM meets around the country tend to be focused on rolling stock and motive power. They don't exclude modules AFAIK, but rarely seem to have any connection to layout visits. Many participants don't have layouts, preferring to focus on building cars and locos. I'd suggest that indicates the growth of an aspect of the hobby whose goal isn't a layout at all, but simply as superdetailed a model as they can make.
So how do we reconcile these contrasting views of what is going on in the hobby? I've briefly described my theory on this before, one that fits with Mark's description here...
NP2626The actual truth of the matter (in my opinion, of course) is that all model railroads are "free lanced” ...
I simplify this into more simplistic terms. The hobby typically (not always, but the limited exceptions tend to prove the rule) focuses on what's on the tracks. That's why RPM meets are full of cars and locos, but structures and other aspects of the layout itself seem to draw little interest by the participants. Which is not to say that many don't have layouts. They do, but this is hardly mandatory and it seems a distinctly secondary priority. To sum it up, the farther from the tracks you get, the less interest many have in the prototype. In the end, that aspect of their interest in the hobby tends to lead to a very different place than Tony believes it will. They may never build a layout or get involved in operations, etc.
It's certainly the case that layouts that apply the same standards to it as they do to locos and other rolling stock are few and far between. Even the most ardent prototype modelers rarely obsess that their layout is many scale miles shorter than the real thing, with a narrow range of elevations and scenery wholly condensed and altered just to fit.
So what is it that makes prototype modeling so attractive to many, yet also includes many whose view of what's important in the hobby often expresses little interest in it beyond the actual models they build? Perhaps the biggest thing is that prototype modeling is pretty focused on what to build. The prototype is there as an example and the closer you get to that, the better. There's not much need to think beyond the model, often even below to the rails it sits on. One's task is pretty well defined, although interpretation and imgination can serve some small part in achiving that.
If your focus is on the whole, in other words creating a distinct context in which the models operate with a larger landscape in the form of a layout, then prototype modeling provides a good start on what to build and depict -- the prototype, of course. But as you get farther from the trains and tracks, then conflicting ideas start to trouble the prototype modeler.
What's the right way to compress? What needs to be part of the layout or not? How do you deal with huge prototypes that, done in typically prototype modeler fashion would mean one or two huge scenes would dominate, even if there's a basement to be filled?
That's where selection and interpretation take over. In essence, it's a reversion to our past, where things needed to be done and even how to do them demand as much artisty as skill.
Model railroading as art requires balancing a number of factors, with the prototype being just one among many. If all your eggs are in the prototype basket, then people often get stuck on what to do first or next. In a sense, their work in the hobby has become so specialized it often doesn't leave space to contemplate other creative aspects of the hobby.
I don't mean to paint this in black-and-white terms. In most cases modelers are a little of both. But I think the emphasis in recent years on the protoype as the end-all, be-all of what model railroading often leaves newcomers very confused and old-timers feeling they don't have any options other than strict adherence to a prototype.
I certainly don't want there to be less concern about the prototype. Personally, although the layout is highly fictional, I've had to creatively interpret the prototype to create enough operations to satisfy my interest. Sure there's plenty to learn from the prototype, but that is then subject to to my interpretation. And I'm OK with that, probably because I've spent time trying to figure out what works fro me. It's really not freelancing, but it's also not bound by what many interpret as the rules constrained by the protoype.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Mike did a pretty good job of summarizing model railroading's extremes. He also, in his best line, noted that he did not mean to make it all black and white. The vast majority of the model railroaders are not prototypical perfectionists or wild cards off in deluded fantasy.
Most of us are here for the journey, the doing and the peace and pleasure it affords us. We are willing to let the extremes enjoy themselves in their own way. It has been said here many times. This is what model railroading is all about....Folks enjoying and expressing themselves.
Oh, The reference to ore possibly glowing..... No. No ore will ever glow no matter how concentrated. No ore product will ever glow. The radium in old glowing watch dials can't glow, either. It is the alpha particles emitted from radium that excite a phosphor mixed with the radium that cause the phosphor chemical to glow. No radioactive material ever glows.... Not even in the hot core of a nuclear reactor. The radiation given off from intensely active radioactive materials can only cause the air, water or other special chemicals around it to glow. "Here endeth the lesson", as Monty Python might say.
Richard,
Thanks for the kind words. My intent was to get people to think about what they do and why, rather than try to slap labels and other artifical constraints on themselves or, worse, on other modelers. Once you understand model railroading as more of a yin/yang sort of thing, a continuum that we tend to slide around a bit on anyway, rather than either/or, it's actually very freeing and relaxing. Ideas come to you, rather than you being a prisoner of ideas you may not even fully understand, but know are important. Both prototype knowledge and some way to access the creative side we all have, call it art or whaetver is not too important, are what is required to build something that really satisfies you.
BTW, also meant to thank you for sharing pics of your layout. It's fine work
I will note there is one scenario where radioactive materials glow, but you don't want to be there. That's when an instantaneous excursion occurs when a sub-critical mass is suddenly brought to a state where it generates a thremendous burst of intense radiation. Victims usually die within 96 hours or so. Not a good way to go. More here:
http://abomb1.org/accident/index.html
http://www.mphpa.org/classic/FH/LA/Louis_Slotin_1.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/11/19/magazine/america-s-radiation-victims-the-hidden-files.html
EVERYONE, TANGENT WARNING!!!
Mike, I sent you a PM, please disreguard, as I got my answer.
Mark
Mark,
My apologies for being so far behind on messages. Give me a bump in a thread if I get that far behind.
In the future I certainly will do, Mike.
I had an order for some stuff and ordered the Book by Tony Koester on Narrow Gauge. It looks like an interesting read and is next on my list of books to read after the Rio Grande Southern by Robert Richardson.
Again, sorry for the off topic, but in any deadly fission accident (When "tickling the tail of the dragon"), the room breaks into a massive blue glow as the air is ionized due to neutron and x-radiation ionizing a massive amount of air molecules. It does this in your body too. This destroy's tissue and ruins your blood chemistry and gastric system. All fail quickly as do you.
The fissioning materials do not glow. It is the air and water molecules de-ionizing that causes the glow. Naturally, the glow is intense right at the fissionling materials as the radiation falls off as the inverse square of distance and gives the impression that it is intensely glowing.
I have worked around nuclear materials for a long time and know the physics of it. I work with fusion systems that rely on ionizing, glowing plasmas.
Radiation on the railroad ore cars can be intense by background standards...If using a geiger counter at the center of the ore car held against the rock, maybe 10,000 times background, but you could lay on top of the load and ride to the next water tank and be just fine. It would be rather stupid, but it would not hurt you....unless you fell of the car on the way or the load shifted and you were buried under the rock ore. (crushed)
Death due to radiation of all the workers ever involved in the effort from 1938 to date would be about two or three weeks of highway and auto deaths in this nation. Have you been scared to death each time you approach or get near your car? Working around radiation, in the industry 8 hours every day is certainly about 10,000 time less likely to kill you than driving.
I guess I really didn't care if the ores "Glowed in the dark", just thought it was a fun question. I like the idea and if I could figure out how to make it happen I might still consider it as it would be a fun spoof for visitors. Silver and gold ores are more to my liking. I noticed while on the Million Dollar Highway there were many, many mines along this road. Especially near Red Mountain Pass, if I remember correctly. The mine buildings where of every shape imaginable! Much of the wood the buildings where made from appeared to be creosote treated. However, these mines are in fairly inaccessible locations and maybe my assumption is totally wrong about the creosote. They look to be still in fairly sound condition. If so, a creosoting plant might make a fairly interesting business along the line somewhere. What I understood was that most of these mines where pretty much sitting idle. However, a few are still in operation and many ceased production not too long ago.
I fell totally in love with the San Juan area of Colorado! I told the wife, when I die, I will probably regret not having spent more time in the mountains of the world. The San Juan’s are second only to the Alps in Europe, in my opinion of their beauty!
OK, guess glowing is strictly unprototypical But it's on of those fun things that might be interesting enough to try.
I tend to leave tongue in cheek things to subtle hints in signage and traffic patterns. Never really thought of the glow in the dark thing...but now that Mark has brought it up, I may see what play value it has. Only problem is my blue LED night lighting doesn't always work the way true UV light will because it's only part of the UV spectrum.
NP2626Silver and gold ores are more to my liking. I noticed while on the Million Dollar Highway there were many, many mines along this road. Especially near Red Mountain Pass, if I remember correctly. The mine buildings where of every shape imaginable! Much of the wood the buildings where made from appeared to be creosote treated. However, these mines are in fairly inaccessible locations and maybe my assumption is totally wrong about the creosote. They look to be still in fairly sound condition. If so, a creosoting plant might make a fairly interesting business along the line somewhere. What I understood was that most of these mines where pretty much sitting idle. However, a few are still in operation and many ceased production not too long ago.
The really old relics are from the late 19th century. The headframes still stand, because those big timbers hold up to the harsh weathering effects, but the enclosing framework, outbuildings etc tend to have been stripped away. There is some obviously treated lumber around, but that tends to be postWWII diggings.
There is some very limited small time mining, but pretty much everything else is history. There has been some talk of further reclamation by treating the low grade ore tailings before stablizing it , but talk of cyanide makes people understandably nervous. Anoter factor is that that simply having water pumped out of you mine creates pollution, as the area is pretty "wet" geologically and all that water pics up nasty stuff just percolating down through the ground. Opening up a hole that lets it out faster before you've even taken out any ore is an iffy corporate propposition in an era more sensitive to envionmental degradation.
Been meaning to cite these books on mining, so before I forget again....
John Marshall with Zeke Zanoni, Mining the Hard Rock (Silverton: Simpler Way Book Co,1996).
Zanoni's dad was a Silverton miner, so a very local focus. Lots of pics, connects the past with the present well.
Will Meyerriecks, Drills and Mills: Precious Metal Mining and Milling Methods of the Frontier West, 2nd edition (self-published, 2001).
Describes developement of mining practices from frontier to the industrial scale. Great detail, so good for figuring out traffic for your model RR.
Beth and Bill Sagstetter, The Mining Camps Speak (Denver: Benchmark Publishing of Colorado, 1998)
Great resource in interpreting what you see now from the viewpoint of the past.
Robert A. Trennert, Riding the High Wire: Aerial Mine Tramways of the West (Boulder: University Press of Colorado, 2001)
All about the iconic feature of San Juans mining, the aerial tramway.
BTW, although they are HO, Anvil Mountain Models offers Silverton area tram tower and buckets kits that are really excellent and easy to build. Forced perspective that comes naturally with a tram line will make this sort of thing work easily in S scale.
http://www.anvilmountainmodels.com/Iowa-tiger-transfer.html
One of my primary missions before I go much further on my layout is to drive the road along the San Miguel river to get a feeling for the country and shoot some images for possible back drop prints. I hope to go to Utah next year to go uranium mineral hunting again.
Since I will be in the Moab area and at the base of the La Sal mountains mineral hunting, I figure taking that road east will take me to all the places the PUP will run.
I am especially interested in the Uravan area, but most in the Naturita-Nucla towns as they are where the PUP operations center and minimalist yard will be located. I will continue on and stop at Placerville, turn around and drive back to La Sal. (A full day trip, I am sure). I have Google Earthed the drive, but it is tedious and while it can come close, it will never replace actually being there.
narrow gauge nuclearSince I will be in the Moab area and at the base of the La Sal mountains mineral hunting, I figure taking that road east will take me to all the places the PUP will run. I am especially interested in the Uravan area, but most in the Naturita-Nucla towns as they are where the PUP operations center and minimalist yard will be located. I will continue on and stop at Placerville, turn around and drive back to La Sal. (A full day trip, I am sure). I have Google Earthed the drive, but it is tedious and while it can come close, it will never replace actually being there.
I've driven Utah 46/Colorado 90 several times and it is a spectacular drive. What I haven't done is taken the turn north from 90 and followed the Dolores River's path to Uravan. Be sure to not miss opportunities to fill up and get any needed provisions before heading into the Paradox Valley, as there is very little there except great views.
Very nice progress. I look forward to seeing more of your layout. I'll also be interested in the photos of your trip, as that area - the La Sals in particular - will be the main focal point of my modeling efforts.
I don't mean to dissuade you from the RGS (it sounds like you're pretty set on it), but given your fondness for the Red Mountain area, have you ever considered modeling the RGS's Silverton cousins - the Silverton RR, Silverton Northern, and Silverton, Gladstone & Northerly? All three are fascinating and could be modeled somewhat more easily than the MUCH longer RGS. The SG&N in particular could make a great smaller layout, or a very accurately-modeled medium to large layout. Just a thought.
Chris
SPV Richard, Very nice progress. I look forward to seeing more of your layout. I'll also be interested in the photos of your trip, as that area - the La Sals in particular - will be the main focal point of my modeling efforts. Mark, I don't mean to dissuade you from the RGS (it sounds like you're pretty set on it), but given your fondness for the Red Mountain area, have you ever considered modeling the RGS's Silverton cousins - the Silverton RR, Silverton Northern, and Silverton, Gladstone & Northerly? All three are fascinating and could be modeled somewhat more easily than the MUCH longer RGS. The SG&N in particular could make a great smaller layout, or a very accurately-modeled medium to large layout. Just a thought. Chris
Yep, if this new layout is going to happen it would be Rio Grande Southern. The length of the line means nothing to me, my present layout is a small section of the Northern Pacific, which was around 2,000 miles long. So I don't figure the 160+ miles of the RGS to be that MUCH longer!
That is the great thing about a freelanced road or any road that is not purely protoyped, You can do pretty much what you like, such as locating two towns in real life separated by 30 miles only 1/10 HO gauge scale mile from each other... or... not doing one of them at all if it was insignificant to your theme.
narrow gauge nuclear That is the great thing about a freelanced road or any road that is not purely protoyped, You can do pretty much what you like, such as locating two towns in real life separated by 30 miles only 1/10 HO gauge scale mile from each other... or... not doing one of them at all if it was insignificant to your theme.
In my head, I always knew that to be true. In my heart, it's been more of a learning curve. Coincidentally, from Silverton I have abbreviated, but nonetheless viable examples of the Silverton RR (to Red Mountain) and the Silverton Northern RR (to Animas Forks). The Silverton, Gladstone & Northerly exists as one leg of the Silverton wye, which leads to one leg of the Red Mountain wye, basically a long staging track.
Now, despite its attractive features as a standalone layout -- I hear you, Chris -- the SG&N gets no respect, even here, and that's too bad. It was the middle sibling of the 3 Little Lines and a charming property, but its near-dependence on the Gold King and Mogul mills and their quick demise doomed it to the shortest life of any among its siblings.
Now, do I miss it? Not really. The SRR and SN provide plenty to do, lots of operational complexity, etc. If I had managed to squeeze it in, it would've squeezed something else out of the room -- and it would've forced too many operators together above Silverton. Even with just the two "little lines"it can get crowded along with the general tightness of aisle space.
What to do? While I am soemwhat freelance in regards to some things, the lines themselves are based on real ones. So I reached into my bag of tricks and came up with the Cascade Branch (http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/219241.aspx?page=1). It uses real topography, but the line is an invention and never existed, maybe never even contemplated. It looks like it might work as a RR, but if it's too steep, I'm OK here. What it will do is eventually take one or two operators and leave more elbow room for those in the main layout room. Six operators is about the limit and if I could keep everyone on task it could really work.
One things for certain, I don't miss the extra branch's worth of traffic from the SG&N, particualrly if I located it where I originally would have put it. I can still build the SG&N locos and cars and run them, which as I've noted before is where much of the interest in prototype modeling often focuses.
For now, there's just enough vestigial SG&N to hold a train on the main back there out of sight. I reworked the layout "legend" so that an exclusive resort and casino now own Gladstone and is the only remaining customer on the branch. There's actually a backcountry ski area up there now, so there's even something of a "prototype" although it's focused more on the young and reckless than it is on conspicuous consumption. Anyway, it's often the favored destination of my San Juan Zephyr luxury cruise train, which regularly plies the Narrowgauge Circle hauling high-rolling railfans and other sybarites to some of Colorado's most enticing entertainment and relaxation venues.
Here's a pic of the SJ Zephyr on a recent rare mileage trip to the decidedly down-market destination of Hesperus.
And if I really do find a need for more traffic, there's room to add a siding back there and hold two trains or allow one to pass others there.
Mike,
Back when you ran some operations in a thread a couple years back, I became interested in what you're layout actually looks like. In the above post, I get the feeling you are modeling the area around Silverton, is that right; or, is Silverton only a small portion of the layout? Anyway, could you show us all your layout or plans you might have? Is there anyway of doing that?
Sure, they're not really good images and some changes/additions were made along the way, but here are the trackplans for the narrowgauge and then the standard gauge parts of the layout.
Narrowgauge
Standard gauge
The room is 28' at its longest, along the top edge of these drawings, and 16' wide, on the left hand side.
Here's the track schematics, which are basically up to date, but may not show all the staging or the Cascade Branch, which takes off from Tefft. Chama staging loop is under Durango, while most of the rest of staging is in the adjacent room with the Cascade Branch.
Some pics to illustrate...Red Mountain, just to the right as you enter.
Animas Forks above and Sheridan below
Eureka and the big Sunnyside Mill
Finally, looking past CHattanooga towards Silverton on the left, Durango in the middle of the room.
Thanks Mike, that goes along ways towards explaining your layout! I have left a PM for you.
You're welcome. The biggest change was the standard gauge staging I first penciled in under Silverton ended up becoming Dove Creek. The staging ended up mostly in the next room, except for two tracks underneath Rockwood that parallel the rest inside the layout room.
Answered your PM.
Thanks Mike and thanks for answering my other PMed Questions! I have sent one more PM to you.
I have done enough thinking about, studying and have drawn enough of a plan to determine that what I would like to do in Sn3 could be done, although on a fairly tight fitting basis. With all the considering that I have done, knowing how I spend my free time and what is important to me, I have determined that I will not be tearing down my HO layout to make room for a new layout. This has been a fun endeavor and I've found I have a festination with Narrow Gauge, just not enough to throw out 26 years of work on my present layout.
Mountain railroading is great fun whatever the gauge. I'd suggest looking at two other Colorado prototypes for more inspiration, the Colorado Midland (and its Cripple Creek offshoot) and the Denver & Salt Lake (which the Rio Grande eventually absorbed as its Moffat Route west from Denver.
The CM just went belly up for the most part, struggling to an end that was prolonged physically, if not corporately as the Midland Terminal until after WWII. The associated railroads into the Cripple Creek District make for a really interesting mix. These included the 3' gauge Florence & Cripple Creek, whose roadbed through Phantom Canyon into CC from the south makes a wonderful journey. So you might even find a way to squeeze in a little narrowgauge based on that.
The D&SL might make a better model if you intend the line to be a somewhat independent eventual acquisition of the NP. While nominally independent, the Rio Grande did have some influence in the years before it absorded the D&SL right after WWII.
I also have an interest in the Denver South Park & Pacific and the Colorado Southern and have been amazed at what Harry Brunk has done with his Union Central and Northern!
The South Park is definitely an inspiration and certainly doesn't get enough love. If it wasn't for Silverton, that might very well be what I modeled instead of the Rio Grande. Visiting the Alpine Tunnel's west portal is one of my favorite trails when I'm in Colorado.
And there's no doubt that for sheer coolness, it was great to see Harry's UC&N find a permanent home. It's a very good reason to visit Cheyenne again: http://www.cheyennedepotmuseum.org/model-railroad