First time poster so I appreciate your patience with me...
I'm 53 and just got my 1st train set in July of this year, which was an N-scale oval with diesel locomotive. Having an affinity for steam w/sound I graduated to HO w/DCC about a month later. Now operating on a double-door (60" x 80") layout, I'm hooked. I've used my current layout to learn and am thinking of re-sizing to 4x8 on a semi-permanent basis until a larger room becomes available (next 2 years when daughter moves out).
I originally planned a late 19th centruy them but due to the lack of rolling stock and a preference for automobiles over horses, I jumped ahead to the 1920's/1930's Depression Era. I want to model a rural setting (Midwest/South, think of the movie "O Brother Where Art Thou?") that has a mainline in a continuous loop with a branchline inside it servicing the rural community. I would prefer that it be continuous also so that I can have multiple trains running without interaction. I also want to add switching to the layout to make it more interesting. This is where my problems arise.
The era and locale are set but I don't kow much about railroad operations, specifically where you need to place what features. I figure to have a central "town" with the remainer rolling hills and plains. The mainline would loop the perimeter but the branchline is my quagmire.
I assume I'd need a yard to simulate deliveries to the mainline, likely separate from the "town". After a few loops they'd hit the branchline and likely go to a common depot/freight station near town. The twon would be supplied from there. Where else would deliveries be made to? The region is probably more suited to the livestock or agricultural industry, so would one of those be needed also? Where would it best be placed? I am assuming that it would be semi-near town for incoming and outgoing product. Would I need a railyard as well, or would it be the same as the mainline yard?
I like the Virginian and Black River Junction layouts. The Heart of Georgia layout looks really nice but I don't know if I can swing a lift table. Any recommendations for good track plans along these lines would be greatly appreciated. I've tried the internet to get many of my questions answered but apparently don't know Googles "magic words".
In a nutshell, Depression Era steam with continuous loop mainline/branchline routes plus switching options. At the moment, size isn't as important as how to arrange everything. From there I can start small and expand as time/$$$ becomes available.
Sorry for being so long-winded. Thanks for your responses.
Well, you have given a good description of what you want, so now you can go ahead and do it. Most modelers like cork roadbed or some such nonsense, but I would buy a sheet of Homasote at Menards (or some such place), if the clerk coes not know what you are talking about, ask for a sound absorbing board. Check it carefully as they can frequently be warped by carless handling in the stores.
NOW you have a surface to hich you can attach your tracks, remove them, re align them and experiment with them until you find out what will work perfectly for you. LION has 14 scale miles of track, and him still moves it ablout and adjusts it.
For your town you probably want a track or two that poke into the center north of the layout (You get to decide which end of the table is north) Across this track you will want your main city street to cross, you then want some industries served by these tracks hidden behind your city scene.
If it were the LION, him would have a siding on the other side of the table, so him could park one train there, and then pull out another. [A siding leaves the main line and then returns to it a little further on... it is a place where trains can pass each other -- A spur is a track that serves something, and does not return to the mane lion. -- A branch line is a track that goes off to some other place.]
You could also put a spur on the far side pointing into the southern part of your table. Depending on how you configure view-blocks this may or may not be a part of your principal view. You can stash a vew cars there so that you can change out your consists. You could have it cross the main loop and point off into space, then you could call it an interchange with another railroad, it gives you and excuse to model a crossing even if you are not going to run trains across it.
But most of all, be free to put tracks down, and pull them up again until you can find out what you can and cannot do with that space.
As for this LION, him likes SUBWAY TRAINS, and him has a plan to make a subway layout on a 4x8 table if anybody is interested.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
I would concur with Lion's suggestion for Homasote -- but, depending on where you are, it's a real pain to find (nowhere carries it where I live). You might have a better chance of finding that 1-2" thick pink (Owen's Corning) extruded foam insulation. And since you're likely to be gluing the track down, they're both equally good (Homasote is better for holding nails though).
How big is the room that you want to put your layout in? And are you limited to a free-standing 4x8 (or whatever)?
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Thanks for the response.
FWIW, most of my questions are focused on when I move to the "big track". I'll have a roughly 12' x 20' room i which to operate and plan to use a U-shaped dogbone or donut layout (depending on if I can figure out the lift gate). My interim 4x8 layout will be primarily used to learn scene techniques as well as DCC wiring so layout isn't nearly as important at this time.
Once on the big track i figure I'll have:
Train yard (including train service) on one end that feeds the mainline (continuous loop)
Mainline that feeds the branchline (continuous loop) withh crossovers
Branchline that feeds the depot/freight station, which feeds town and industries with incoming freight (likely via 40' wood-sided boxcars) via gravel roads. Town located in middle.
Branchline that feeds remote stores via dedicated spurs with boxcars
Branchline that picks up from industry (livestock and agricultural) at each end of town. Stock cars for livestock. Unknown type for agricultural.
Farm(s) on another end that feed industry(s) via gravel roads.
Anything else?
Homasote is a pain unless you are hand laying, then there is none better!!!!! Go foam with cork roadbed on top, easy to use and hard to screw up. Use caulk to secure it and the track, untill you ballast it it is easy to fix a problem.
You're in a pretty good place, in terms of your circumstances and attitude. You have a couple years to experiment and learn before you proceed to fill your daughter's former room with railroad. It's good to find a specific railroad (or railroads) and location to focus on. I'd try to narrow it down to one state. Do some reading, and learn about the railroads that served that area. After a while, you'll probably identify a favorite. The state and the railroad will help you to decide what industries your line serves, and that will help you to decide what equipment fits your overall theme. Focusing on a real railroad, a real line of that railroad, and real towns on that line, can help you to focus.
While you're learning about the prototype, you should learn what you can about model railroad best practices. Our host, Model Railroader, is a good source of info. Around holiday season every year, they feature a project railroad with tips on how to build a model railroad. Read that stuff and jump in. Your first layout should be 2 years of experimenting, which should give you a pretty good idea of the direction you'll want to go when that room becomes available.
A 4x8 layout is a pretty good start. That's where most of us started. When that room becomes available, you may want to turn things inside out and have an around-the-walls layout with a 4x8 operating space in the middle. Be open to new ideas and new approaches.
You don't have to break the bank to have a nice layout, but it's usually best to buy quality. Do a bit of researchg before making big purchases. It's possible to have good equipment without letting the spending go out of control.
There are some real characters who hang out on this forum, but they're mostly harmless and willing to help out a newbie. Welcome aboard!
Tom
to the forum. I note you mentioned the Virginian and wonder if you are aware of the Virginian Build thread....
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/202934.aspx?page=1
Lots of good stuff there.
Have Fun,
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
bdasa I originally planned a late 19th centruy them but due to the lack of rolling stock and a preference for automobiles over horses, I jumped ahead to the 1920's/1930's Depression Era. I want to model a rural setting (Midwest/South, think of the movie "O Brother Where Art Thou?") that has a mainline in a continuous loop with a branchline inside it servicing the rural community. I would prefer that it be continuous also so that I can have multiple trains running without interaction. I also want to add switching to the layout to make it more interesting. This is where my problems arise.
I'm going to take a contrarian view from most of the other posters. I agree you have problems but not the ones you think. If you are doing rural railroading that means single track. On a single track loop on a 4x8 in HO having "multiple trains running" is pretty much out of the question unless its OK to have the engine of one train running a foot behind the caboose of the other train. On a 4x8 a "branchline" becomes a 4-6 foot long spur, not much of a branch at all. Not being negative, but reality rears its ugly head, you can't put a lot on a 4x8 sheet of plywood unless you pack it with track and then you will lose the whole rural feel.
My suggestion would be to divide the layout into two areas by putting a backdrop roughly down the middle, a 16-24 inch high "wall" of masonite of 1/2 in foamboard. It would be painted a sky color. Placing it at a small angle would be better. On one side put your town. A siding, with 3 or 4 spurs for industries. On the other side put the yard, a siding with 2 yard tracks, and "interchange", a spur to park the engine, a spur for a passenger car and a couple industry spurs. If you want, include an Atlas turntable (NO roundhouse) to turn your engine.
If a backdrop is too involved then put the town on one side, the yard on the other and heavy row of tall trees wandering down the middle of the layout to break the 4x8 into two scenes.
Operation would be switching up your train in the yard, working the industries a the yard, then running to the town, working those industries, coming around the loop to the yard (which now represents the other end of the railroad) switching the interchange, turning the engine and running back around the loop through the town to the "original" yard, putting your train away, and turning the engine. You could have a combine in the coach track and then run a passenger train, or run a doodlebug (which would give you your 2nd train) or run the local as a mixed.
Simple plan, simple operations, can be as prototypical as you like, leaves lots of room for scenery.
Where else would deliveries be made to? The region is probably more suited to the livestock or agricultural industry, so would one of those be needed also? Where would it best be placed? I am assuming that it would be semi-near town for incoming and outgoing product. Would I need a railyard as well, or would it be the same as the mainline yard?
Southern industries would be a lumber yard, feed mill, cotton gin (shipping bales of cotton), cotton seed mill (shipping cotton seed meal, cotton seed oil), fertilizer/seed/oil dealer, a chicken packing plant, a fruit packing plant, a sawmill (shipping raw ties) a paper mill, a pulpwood yard and probably a stock chute/stock yard.
Midwestern industries would be grain elevators, feed/fertilize/implement companies, small foundries, stock chute/stockyard, small manufacturing, flour mill, lumber yard, coal yard, meat packing plant.
Either would have a small freight house and a team track.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
NeO6874but, depending on where you are, it's a real pain to find (nowhere carries it where I live). You might have a better chance of finding that 1-2" thick pink (Owen's Corning) extruded foam insulation. And since you're likely to be gluing the track down, they're both equally good (Homasote is better for holding nails though)
Everyplace has sound-proofing boards, they are used as an underlayment for floors. Everyplace I know of still has floors. LION recomends that over the foam, because LION does not want to glue the tracks down just yet. This layout is your "Experiment" and you want to be able to shift the tracks around and re-arrange things until you find a mode that works for you.
True, LION does have some piink foam, and him used NAILS to hold the tracks down. It was obvious from the get-go that the nails would not grasp the foam, but I thought "what the tail!" these nails no not have to hold the tracks down, we have gravity for that, all they need to do is to keep the tracks from sliding around, and that they could do. That worked in fact for more than seven years, until I installed automatic signals using reed switched embedded in the tracks and a magnet attached to the bottom of the train. Good bye nails. LION then cam back and glued the tracks down and made sure that all of the nails were also glued in place. Just a stripe of elmers glue accomplished that.
So if you go with foam, pink, blue or white, just use the nails for now, and when things are just so, then come back and glue them.
BroadwayLion NeO6874 but, depending on where you are, it's a real pain to find (nowhere carries it where I live). You might have a better chance of finding that 1-2" thick pink (Owen's Corning) extruded foam insulation. And since you're likely to be gluing the track down, they're both equally good (Homasote is better for holding nails though) Everyplace has sound-proofing ...
NeO6874 but, depending on where you are, it's a real pain to find (nowhere carries it where I live). You might have a better chance of finding that 1-2" thick pink (Owen's Corning) extruded foam insulation. And since you're likely to be gluing the track down, they're both equally good (Homasote is better for holding nails though)
Everyplace has sound-proofing ...
Yeah, but not necessarily the useful kind
Local Home Depot / Lowes stores only carry "DB-3 sound barrier" (4x8 roll)
Granted, I haven't opened a box to see what it is, but the pictures (on the box and online) make it appear to be some kind of foam rubber or possibly felt with some kind of rubberized backing.
There are no 4x8 sheets of 440 soundboard in any thickness (or equivalent) available here ...
NeO6874Granted, I haven't opened a box to see what it is, but the pictures (on the box and online) make it appear to be some kind of foam rubber or possibly felt with some kind of rubberized backing. There are no 4x8 sheets of 440 soundboard in any thickness (or equivalent) available here ...
Maybe is someplaces they *do* roll up the sidewalks (or floors) after 6PM.
Big box SHOULD have it, if not a real lumber yard will either have it or can get it for you.
Hi bdasa
In the 20's and 30's the "yard" would have been in town having the yard out of town made things awkward
As cars and trucks where for big business or the more well off residence of town as at that time they were comparitavly expencive compared to today there was still LCL trafic parcles still moved by rail.
So the station freight shed sidings would have been in the middle of town.
one side being the desirable area the other the wrong side of the tracks Our hosts Kalmback publishing
do a number of track planning and track plans books that are worth a look.
As is the Virginian thread which has a number of people building The Virginian MRR project layout
That is certainly worth a look its an eight by four layout then later a branch line is added? extended? and later again a staging yard is added not sure I have the add ons the right way round.
But be aware there does not seem to be a lot of actual virginian stock around certainly plenty of coal hoppers a diesle loco and I have seen a box car a caboose might be an issuie that aside I think its an interesting layout
That could be incorperated into something bigger as time and space allow.
regards John
There are many good suggestions already made. I see myself in your talkings from 2003 when I first got hooked and still remember the guys from this site helping with my first layout plans and evolved from a 5x9 centre of the room to where Im at now which is an around the walls layout. I also model the depression era and running steam. I'm also 53 this november and the kids have left the nest now so I actually have had room to expand this past winter and added an additional room with more realestate as well as I moved my layout upward starting at a grid top of 48 inches which then goes up from there. All my past 5 layouts Ive done like what you intend to do which is experiment with the so many different techniques of doing benchwork, track plans, roadways, bridges scenery and the list goes on and on and on. For myself my modelling is done more in the winter months as myself and wife ride our motorcycles when time and weather permits.
Sooooo saying all that, are you going to be modeling through out the year or as a side hobby in the winter months? Reason asking is I dont know about you but my eyes have gotten much worse since hitting the more mature years so the simplest things like installing a trackjoiner on the end of a rail or soldering feeders to the rails is not as easy as it use to be. What Im suggesting is do a proper more advanced layout benchwork style this time around and jump in full throttle. I would suggest with the size of room you have available to do an around the room twisted loop to loop using an L girder style to give lots of oportunity to be able to raise the tracks at a determined elevation and at the same time allow for rivers bridges and all the good stuff that goes with making great scenes.
Just my thoughts.
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Thanks for the inputs folks, I really appreciate it. I've been buying books and reading the internets, trying to learn as much as I can, essentially becoming a sponge for information.
For my temporary "learning track" I've decided to stick with my double hollow-core doors and go with a layout from "More 101 Track Plans" book. It is called the "Arkansas Southern" and states that it is a good first "real" track. I played around with SCARM and created a modified version to fit my doors.
I then started to try my hand at my future layout. The area I'll have is a little over 13' x 10' with a workbench to boot. Here's what I came up with as the basis for the layout.
The layout is essentially a loop inside a loop to allow hands-free running of two trains simultaneously. I need to add details to it, which is the basis of the thread. I'd like a small yard, a small town (I have the Grand Valley City & Industry kit) and some industry spurs to flush it out. Any comments or recommendations would be appreciated.
To start, I would extend both of the inner loops -- make them fully parallel to the other track, so that it looks like you have a double-track mainline, instead of two loops.
For a yard, you could build it off one of the longer straight legs (top or right side), which looks like it'd give you several feet to work with (plenty in N scale). Other than the A/D Track(s), I would make the whole thing single-ended (so you're not burning space with two ladder tracks.
For industrial spurs, you can have them come off the mains where it makes sense / you can fit them, and just put a crossover nearby so you can work them into Northbound/Southbound (or Eastbound/Westbound) trains, rather than "only" the inner track being able to access the industries.
Last thing I would do would be to put some form of a viewblock in, so that you can create two or more scenes - that way, you help disguise the roundy-roundy aspect of the trackplan.
I'm going to suggest to the OP that he not go with foam as subroadbed. The down side to gluing is it is too permanent too soon. I've had experience with two sizable layouts (16x19 and 14x25) and used the old school method of using Atlas track nails and/or spikes to hold my track down to homasote, homabed or plywood before it is decided it is good for long-term, and then I would recommend putting the ballast in and using an adhesive.
I can't tell you how many times I've had to revise or adjust where the track was laid during the early phase, and it was a simple matter of pulling the nails or spikes out with a pair of needle nose plyers, no hardened glue to deal with and rip out the track, ruening it more likely than not. Your call but I don't like the idea of using glue when the track is first down and my personal experience has born it out that it was a good call to not glue it!
And it has saved me money not gluing track; track is not as cheap as it used to be so I like to save it where possible. Using nails or spikes has beena real saver! Once you are happy with the track, then ballast it with an adhesive and after it has set up, you can pull out track nails or spikes in most cases and it will be held in place by the glued on ballast. If money is no object or you are sure you can get it right the first time, then maybe gluing your track down is not an issue for you.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
riogrande5761 I'm going to suggest to the OP that he not go with foam as subroadbed. The down side to gluing is it is too permanent too soon. I've had experience with two sizable layouts (16x19 and 14x25) and used the old school method of using Atlas track nails and/or spikes to hold my track down to homasote, homabed or plywood before it is decided it is good for long-term, and then I would recommend putting the ballast in and using an adhesive.
Nice thing with foam though is that you "glue" it with DAP caulk. It holds enough that stuff isn't going anywhere, but it's supple enough that, with one of those plastic putty knives, you can separate the track from the roadbed from the foam (plywood).
Once you like it, the track gets more permanently attached by the matte medium/elmers glue and ballast when you get to that stage.
NeO6874 Nice thing with foam though is that you "glue" it with DAP caulk. It holds enough that stuff isn't going anywhere, but it's supple enough that, with one of those plastic putty knives, you can separate the track from the roadbed from the foam (plywood).
Nice thing about nails is I don't have to wait for glue/DAP to cure. Nail is in, track is secure immediately and I can run/test trains on it. I still prefer it over adhesives and recommend it to new folks. Just thought I'd offer "the other side" for consideration.
bdasa The layout is essentially a loop inside a loop to allow hands-free running of two trains simultaneously. I need to add details to it, which is the basis of the thread. I'd like a small yard, a small town (I have the Grand Valley City & Industry kit) and some industry spurs to flush it out. Any comments or recommendations would be appreciated.
Several thoughts: I agree about a lot of what DHeusman has posted. The smaller layout need not be planned a great deal since it is a learning layout. The plan you have posted lends itself tremendously for Dave's center backdrop idea. For this layout, you'd want to put it at a diagonal to separate two the towns. That will give you a better sense of the trains going from one place to the next.
I would also build it with some flex track instead of all sectional track since you'll want some experience with that for your bigger layout.
Personally, I like plywood and diluted white glue. If you want to adjust the track, just spritz the track or roadbed with water near its base and it softens up the glue. You can adjust the track or scrape the glue up easily.
For your bigger layout, keep in mind that you'll probably want to build it at least 48 inches tall (if you will stand when operating) and a workbench will sit at 30 inches and can be placed under the layout. A layout shelf of 12 or 18 inches deep when flying over the workbench will give you plenty of room for storage cubbies between the layout and workbench. No need to limit the location of the layout to a corner of the room.
I'd prefer an around the walls layout rather than confining the plan to only two walls, not to mention you may be introducing a reach problem near the turnaround blobs. (track should be no more than 30 inches away from the edge, otherwise it becomes very difficult to reach)
- Douglas
riogrande5761 NeO6874 Nice thing with foam though is that you "glue" it with DAP caulk. It holds enough that stuff isn't going anywhere, but it's supple enough that, with one of those plastic putty knives, you can separate the track from the roadbed from the foam (plywood). Nice thing about nails is I don't have to wait for glue/DAP to cure. Nail is in, track is secure immediately and I can run/test trains on it. I still prefer it over adhesives and recommend it to new folks. Just thought I'd offer "the other side" for consideration.
Definitely!
I've found that with as thin as we're talking, the DAP (etc.) sets up enough that track won't go flying everywhere after about 10 minutes. Nails are easier to deal with when you've got track that's "not quite right", and you have to shift it over a bit here or there...
Looking at the learner layout plan it looks to me like the yard can be moved outwards a little to create some space between the main line and yard.
If need be run a 3 ply re-enforced corrugated iron factory fence along that edge this gives a bit of seperation
You might want to concider a short dead end on the left hand side at the yard throat this can be a loco local servicing track with coal water and sand if it can be long enough, it could also do double duty as the yard head shunt as well
Making switching the yard a lot easier without fouling the main line.
Can the industrial sidings be aranged to take up less real estate space without loss of track length that could allow more impressive looking industry and some town space to use as a view block or scenic break in the center of the layout
To help the illusion that the layout is bigger than it really is this is an illusion that no matter how big or small the layout is, we all have to try and create. In our mini worlds.