So we are laying out some new industrial sidings on the layout, and I'm trying to use the sharpest turnout possible since we're trying to save space, and the tracks aren't going to be used by very large equipment. Our whole layout is using PECO Streamline Code 83 track throughout. I got some Walthers Shinohara no. 4 turnouts, but they appear to be a larger radius than the PECO no. 5's! What are some of the sharpest Code 83 turnouts available that we could use for sidings? Been building layouts for more than 30 years, but I still feel like a newbie when it comes to determining turnout radii! :-)
-otto vondrak
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Otto VondrakI got some Walthers Shinohara no. 4 turnouts, but they appear to be a larger radius than the PECO no. 5's!
I don't think that is true, although it may look that way. The Walthers are built a lot longer, but the sharpest turn through the frog area of a Walthers #4 will be sharper than the PECO #5, in my experience. Walthers turnouts can be trimmed a lot.
I often spec Code 75 PECO "Short" turnouts for really tight industrial areas. Even though they are a different code, the curved diverging leg is very space-saving -- and the turnouts are compact overall.
Trillig turnouts are likewise built with curved diverging legs and are thus pretty compact. There is a Code 83 line, although they may be a bit harder to source in the US than PECO.
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The shortest turnaouts are of course Snap Tracks. LION stil has eight of those in service as double crossovers.
Kinda looks prtotypical to me...
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John Armstrong in his books and articles always pointed out that #4 turnouts offer numerous track planning opportunities and options and should not be disdained. I think he felt too many modelers were going with #8s or #6s because of the status of saying that was your sharpest turnout size.
In my own experience, the smallest size of Peco turnout (un-numbered - but commonly thought of as "their" version of a #4) can handle a pretty impressive variety of equipment, provided the equipment is properly weighted, the turnout is on a solid and very flat surface, and the track is otherwise well-laid.
In some specialized situations don't ignore the potential for the Peco "small" wye track as well.
I have some distant memory that the old Atlas snap-track switches I had on my first layouts were actually close to being # 3 1/2 and thus smaller even than the normal Atlas #4, and they could handle trains that moved at rather high speeds at that. But not many people might want to introduce a snap switch into a layout with otherwise nice looking track.
Dave Nelson
I don't know about a Peco #5, but the radius through the points of my Walthers/Shinohara Code 83 #4s is 26". Handles 6-axle diesels.
Dante
First let me tell you that this is pure conjecture on my part but I think the Peco switches have a curve that continues through the frog and on out the diverging route while the others have an angle at the frog and then continue straight beyond. I state this based on experience using Shinohara and Peco code 100's on my layout.
Now for something I know for sure. I used Shinohara number 4's in my indutrial area for both the yard ladder and industry tracks. I did some serious surgery on them to achieve the close track centers I wanted. No problems at all operating 4 axle diesel swithers and cars up to 53' long. Road power is prohibited on this trackage so that is not an issue and I have not yet even tried a 10 coupled steam engine or 6 axle diesel in this area.
Be happy in your work,
Charlie
BroadwayLion The shortest turnaouts are of course Snap Tracks. LION stil has eight of those in service as double crossovers. Kinda looks prtotypical to me...
For the NYC subway I agree they are prototypical
Joe Staten Island West
Otto VondrakBeen building layouts for more than 30 years, but I still feel like a newbie when it comes to determining turnout radii! :-)
I think you're referring to what equivalent pierce of curved track could be used to replace a turnout. I don't believe this is the same as the switch radius described on the NMRA turnout dimensions page which says a #4 turnout has a 58" radius.
The Atlas snap-switches are designed to replace a section of 18" curve track. If you compare the snap-switches to the Atlas #4 switch, you would see that the diverging rails of the #4 are straight while they are curved on the snap switch.
from hand-laying switches, i've learned that the track should be straight through the frog to avoid derails. In Lion's picture, you can see that a lot of the curve is in the points. This means there is not a continuous curve thru a turnout.
to minimize turnout radius, you may want to shorten the straight sections of the turnout preceeding the points and after the frog.
The Reading B-8 0-6-0 has a shortended wheelbase compared to earlier models so that it can negotiate those tight radii mentioned in an earlier post.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Otto VondrakWhat are some of the sharpest Code 83 turnouts available that we could use for sidings?
Otto,I wouldn't use anything sharper then the Atlas snap switch with flex track to swing the track closer to the main but,I'm not above doing whatever it takes to include reversing a 1/3 or 1/2 of a 18" curve to swing the industrial track closer to the main track..This works quite well but,stay with cars less then 60' and double check the cars to ensure all cars above 50' have smooth coupler swing.
Larry
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This hand-layer of specialwork will sit on his fingers and not give the usual pitch.
One simple question. How tight a curve can your rolling stock handle if the cars AREN'T rolling over points and frogs? By that, I mean cars coupled to a switcher, not just singly. Note, too, that trains that can negotiate a really tight turnout might become very unhappy if the curve continues rather than resuming tangent status. That information can be used by people who hand-lay specialwork. It's also handy to know when you're checking out what's available in boxes or bubble-packs.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with hand-laid specialwork)
DL&W's Harlem Transfer had #3 and #3-1/3 switches. I suspect that other marine terminals and dockside tracks had similarly sharp turnouts. The oval around the freight house at HT was 90 ft radius on the inside (loading track) and 104 ft radius on the outside track.
Phil Goldstein's website has excellent information on the HT and other marine terminals.
Http://members.trainweb.com/bedt/indloco/ht.html
Not sure that Lion's snap switches are that sharp. Would likely require hand laying.
I think the longest car that would be placed on one of these sidings would be a 50' boxcar. Siding would not come off the main line, rather the siding is coming off an industrial running track alongside the main. Also the siding is designed for low speed switching, so I'm not worried about a tight curve here or there.
Thanks all for chiming in!
-otto-
If you need something reeeaaaaaallllly tight, I have prototype Reading Co. diagrams of #3 switches (they do have a curved frog also). The real question is what are you trying to get into the spur? If the engine that is going to do the work or the cars to be spotted can't negoiate a #4 switch, then the smallest switch you can use is a #5, regardless whether there are tighter switches.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
From a manufacturer the ATLAS Number 4 is as tight as it gets.
Reading Company 0-4-0 A 4's and A 5's had shorter wheelbases than the short wheelbase B 0-6-0 classes. The B class would use a driver in the center without a wheel flange but still had a longer wheelbase.
I use PECO code 83 for almost all of my track work.
I have studied industrial trackage maps of the Reading's Philadelphia American Street Line and the Willow and Noble Street Line and some of these sidings were the equivalent of 10 to 11 inch radius curves in HO. These lines were designed and built in the late 1800's when typical house cars were 30 feet long. These same industrial sidings did handle the later 40 and 50 feet cars. I do not think the locomotives typically negotiated these curves but instead used other cars to push or retrieve the cars from the factory buildings and coal trestles while remaining on the running tracks. This is not to say that the locomotives did not negotiate these tracks I am simply saying I do not think it was typical.
Chances are the factory building would not allow a steam locomotive into the building either.
In later years the ALCO, Baldwin, FM, and EMD switchers would follow the same practice. I believe ALCO ads of the time indicated that an ALCO switcher could go anywhere a 40 foot boxcar could go.
The Locomotive Diagrams book on Reading Diesels indicate switchers when equiped with "swivel couplers" could negotiate a 60 foot radius with a frieght car. This is about a 8.27 inch radius in HO if my math is right.
Hope this helps.
RDG1519From a manufacturer the ATLAS Number 4 is as tight as it gets.
I do not believe that is correct. The Atlas "#4" is actually about a #4 1/2, so other manufacturers’ "true" #4s will be sharper. In addition (as others have pointed out), Atlas’ own Snap-Switch is sharper than #4. The same is true for other similar components, such as the PECO SetTrack turnout.
cuyamaThe Atlas "#4" is actually about a #4 1/2, so other manufacturers’ "true" #4s will be sharper. In addition (as others have pointed out), Atlas’ own Snap-Switch is sharper than #4. The same is true for other similar components, such as the PECO SetTrack turnout.
Byron's right. Here's a handy document on frog angles http://www.hubdiv.org/articles/frogNumbers.pdf . As shown, the Atlas #4 is actually a 4.5, a Pilz 15 degree turnout corresponds to about a #3.8, while an Atlas Snap Switch is a #3.33.
Rob Spangler
So it seems like the Atlas No. 4 Code 83 turnout is what I need... I checked PECO's site, and it looks like the "small radius" turnout is only available in their Code 75 line, and unless I read their site wrong, the sharpest turnout in their Code 83 line is a No. 5.
Yes, a #5 seems to be the smallest turnout Peco makes in their Streamline 83 series.