I was poking around on an auction site and came across someone selling helix kits for N scale railroads. I'm thinking of using a helix when i build a layout (hopefully starting this summer), but I have a couple concerns about these kits: They use thin MDF instead of plywood; and the curve radii they use (double-track helix) seem tobe too small for modern freight cars and engines, or most passenger equipment. Or, am I wrong in my assumptions?
Thanks!
A guy builds kits and sells them?! I guees he makes the most generic sort of a kit possible since he wants to sell as many of them as he can. It is not his fault, forsooth, that you want to run something longer than 20' logging cars.
Light weight flexible materials are ok in book of LION so long as they are supported properly. The heilx has to be long enough to gain the propper elevation between layers, and this smply begs for thinner materials. Obviously a 5' diameter helix will sork better than a 4' diameter helix. But now you are talking serious floor space.
LION would (did) build own helixes from scratch. Him used 1/2 celotex, and later when him made helix 4 tracks instead of 2, him used 1/2" OSB. Decking was wider in the inside than what the four tracks required, thus there him could place structural spacers that would support the weight of the layout and trains. On the outside edge him used spacers at intervals to support next level up, and bolts to hold the upper level down onto these spacers. Does that make sense.
No, of course not. LIONS *never* make snese, that is why they are LIONS. Here is picture.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
this should handle most stuff http://www.ashlintrains.com/servlet/the-102/N-scale-N-gauge/Detail
this is in the back of MR mag
Am i ever gonna be able to lay any track???
Be sure to check their math. A number of the commercial kits state a lower grade than is actually the case for the radius and deck separation. I have written to one manufacturer a couple of times, but he continues to advertise the incorrect specifications.
In the example you posted, the inner radius of 15" with a 1/4" deck is actually 2.367%, not the quoted 2%. The 16.5" outer radius is actually 2.17%. He may not realize that he must add the deck height -- or the manufacturer/seller may just think that more people will buy if the products are mis-labelled as "2%". I also don't agree with the manufacturer/seller's contention that the 2" deck-to-deck clearance is a good choice for KATO's superelevated Unitrack (especially with the tallest modern equipment such as double-stacks).
15" radius in N scale should handle nearly all cars and engines, but note that the additional effective grade created by the friction through the curve of the helix may cause problems with the longest trains and equipment (such as stringlining).
A broader radius and a skoche more clearance would be more reliable if you have the space.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
The guy who advertises in MR is apparently the same one who's selling his stuff on the auction site. It looks okay, but I'm always concerned about dimensional stability whenever I read/hear that someone's using MDF due to the fact that it's not real wood. I was honsetly thinking of using lauan plywood, but if MDF is acceptable, maybe that's the way to go, though I'd think 20" would be a better minimum radius in a helix for N scale passenger cars and TTX flats.
Dumb question #2 regarding helixes: Is it a good idea to have switches in them, either for passing tracks or for storage? I think I've read of people doing this, but wasn't sure if it can cause more problems than it's worth.
Dumb question #3 (the REALLY dumb question): Should I even contemplate putting a switch/turnout/whatever you feel like calling it somewhere in a helix so there's a diverging route, or are the physics so obviously godawful (S-curves, reverse camber, etc.) that it shouldn't be attempted?
Thanks again.
I personally don't like working with MDF, YMMV.
One can place a turnout within a helix, but it's a bit trickier to have all the various grades line up. And I'd definitely want some extra clearance to get my hands in there.
I actually just finished a design for someone with a turnout in the helix, but it's on the last upper turn so access is better. Again, just personally, I try to look for alternatives to placing turnouts in the helix if possible. But it can be, and has been, done.
Note that a turnout in the helix will make it slightly out of round -- even curved turnouts are typically off a bit from a pure circle.
I have a 350mm radius helix, built of steel stud material. Grade is steeper than you would want (3.51%, with a railhead to railhead height of 82mm.) The roadbed-free flextrack is caulked directly to the steel, with a few extra anchors through the ties (twisted wire.) The actual shape is a dodecagon, with 30 degree angles between segments.
Another solution for a helix is to wrap it around a mountain. Not suitable for a true circle, but fine for a more-or-less oval shaped like a bedspring - and it gives places to add turnouts. Google Tzu-Li Shan (Alishan forest railway, Taiwan) for the prototype inspiration.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - more or less)
I used an Ashlin helix kit and am very pleased with the results. I had them add an extra 1/2 turn to accomodate the rise I needed.
My only suggestion would be to paint the sections prior to assembly to minimize contraction/ expansion. I have had my helix now for around a year and did notice that there was some contraction during the drier winter months that caused some buckling in the track that was held down by adhesive caulk on cork. I would recommend just using small 1/2 inch screws- #4 and a small washer to hold the track in place. this will allow for easy adjustment. My layout is in the basement and although I run a de-humidifer at all times, I did experience contraction this winter and now expansion this spring. I did solder all the joints along the run in the helix so maybe that contributes some to the buckling as the track doesn't have much give to it.
I am HO scale and I went with the larger radius helix and laid a single track down near the outer loop...I have had no issues with my 4 axle diesels pulling small trains 10-12 cars up the grade.
I recommend the product
Good luck
Bart
I wondered about using the MDF myself. I did see a HO layout with a Ashlin helix and after two years, it was rock stable. The owner painted/sealed everything and used screws/washers to attach the track. BTW, Ashlin will custom cut a helix to your specifications -The owner said the charges were quite in line.
Myself, I still like common birch plywood with threaded rods/spacers to set the elevations.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I was going to build my own helix but I couldn't find a sheet of spiral plywood .
Actually, I'd use 1/2 or 5/8 ply. You could get fancy grades but I think a decent piece of CDX would work just as well.
I am relatively new to this hobby using NScale, but I am currently Using one of the Ashlin Helix kits in my layout. I am running an N SCALE Layout and I am finding out some interesting challenges that I didn't experience with HO.
I Did make some adjustments to the height... I didn't need 15" so I cut the uprights in half and only used half of the height, but I wholeheartedly agree with the one gentleman who said it is Most important to DO THE MATH on the exact measurements for the GRADIENT and RADII of this unit to see if it will accomodate what you want do with it. BEFORE YOU BEGIN ASSEMBLY. that way you can make your adjustments in it first and assembly will go smoothly.
I have only had issues with the height when I run my E60CP Locos on it due to that height issue of the 2" between sections. You Can make adjustments for this when you assemble the kit by widening the cuts in the uprights and installing shims underneath the pieces of MDF where they join with the Pine Uprights. As far as the structural issues with pressboard, with the introduction of moisture,etc. I just spray on a coat of clear coat varnish before I start working with it to provide a bit of weather seal to it. Helps in the winter and early spring months when it rains alot.
I am running two sets of Atlas code 80 Flex track with WS Trackbed (one uphill and one down) and have No issues at all with even my longest pieces of rolling stock... the Amtrak Amfleet cars I use with my E60s, which are some of the longest in my rolling stock, are Scale to about 80 ft. and they run fine on both the inside and outside tracks. I guess it will have to be left to your preference but I have personally had no issues. As far as expansion I am using WS trackbed instead of cork so I have much quieter operation and track issues regardless of the ambient temperature.
In response to the installation of a switch turnout installed on it I say Probably NOT unless you don't mind the possible banking and twist it will potentially cause to your track and all of the wonderful challenges that sort of thing brings.
I certainly hope this info helps.
Ashlin is the only manufacturer of helix kits that I know of. I'm sure any of the custom layout builders would make you one but I'm also sure it would be a LOT of bucks. Unfortunately the web site is currently down although the helix is offered on other wites such as Strikeforce Hobbies for teh same $$.
Like others, I am concerned about the very thin MDF used on these kits. Also like others I note that the grade is actually 2.27%, not the claimed 2%. Lastly, I'm unimpressed with the support system and would substitute my own design. But my main concern is the price. For $170 you get ten pieces of thin pre-cut MDF that make up to 2 /12 complete turns. For a maximum of $25 - typically closer to $20, I'm giving benefit of doubt here - you can buy a sheet of quality plywood ("real" plywood - not the MDF, not the OSB garbage and although I would highly recommend painting or sealing, you can forget about warping unless the stuff actually gets wet). Then you and a saber saw can cut easily 3.5 to 4 complete turns per sheet, i.e. $7 to $8 per turn plus support material versus $68 per turn. Hey, I don't begrudge him a profit but his pricing seems out of line. I was picking something up at our local millwork shop and asked them just out of curiosity. They charge $100 an hour for cutting plywood with a minimum charge of $60. They said that if I provided a simple template, they would easily cut two sheets' worth for the minimum charge, very possibly three. I'm going to take them up on this (I'll need 3 sheets' worth) and even at $175 including the plywood, I'm at about $16 per complete turn.
CAUTION: The DIY route requires a STRONG working knowledge of geometry. Fortunately this was one of my best and favorite subjects. For example, a 28" track radius means an outer radius for your helix of 29 1/2 ". Similarly the linear length of your complete turn must be slightly longer in order to accommodate the 4" rise.
I also looked at off-site cutting of the helix. I found a cabinet shop with a CNC cutter. Setup in the computer is $60. High quality common 1/2" birch plywood is $33/sheet. They can cut each sheet for about $10-12 each(depending how fast they go). This includes drilling the holes for the 3/16" threated rod. This works out to about $240 for the same 4 1/2 turn helix using 1/2" plywood and 'precision' cut parts. They claim 1/64" tolerance on the cuts.
No mess/no fuss....
steamnut Ashlin is the only manufacturer of helix kits that I know of. I'm sure any of the custom layout builders would make you one but I'm also sure it would be a LOT of bucks. Unfortunately the web site is currently down although the helix is offered on other wites such as Strikeforce Hobbies for teh same $$.
I believe that Easy Helix (http://easyhelix.com) is still in business. They use plastic with metal tube spacers. Nominal radius is 28 inches, 4 inch separate for HO or N scales.
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
steamnutAshlin is the only manufacturer of helix kits that I know of.
Noch (Germany), Proses (UK), Model Railway Solutions (UK), Modular Train Tables (Australia) and probably other model rail suppliers around the world produce helix kits
Cheers,
Bill
Thanks for all the input, guys. I'm still pondering my situation, figuring out if the helix is necessary and/or whether my ambitions exceed my ability to carry them off (modelling the Southern Tier line back when LV' s Auburn branch paralleled the EL main, including the interchange in Owego and the EL crossing over the LV branch and the LV main on bridges). Guess I'll do more pondering.
tomikawaTT I have a 350mm radius helix, built of steel stud material. Grade is steeper than you would want (3.51%, with a railhead to railhead height of 82mm.) Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - more or less)
I have a 350mm radius helix, built of steel stud material. Grade is steeper than you would want (3.51%, with a railhead to railhead height of 82mm.)
It would make the information much more user friendly if you were to list measurements in English units such as inches and feet. You may not be aware, but many of us "glaze over" when we see mm and cm; as a practical matter, inches are most familiar to the average MR forum reader. If you want readers to find your posts more "accessable", please convert to inches and feet.
Software ToolsNoch (Germany), Proses (UK), Model Railway Solutions (UK), Modular Train Tables (Australia) and probably other model rail suppliers around the world produce helix kits Cheers,Bill
Cheers,Bill
Thats well and good, but if the customer is in the US, shipping costs from countries outside of the US will likely be very high and thus prohibitive as a practical matter. Most can't afford shipping for products sent across that big pond!
It is a sad commentary to the US education systems when it is considered "strong" geometry skills to do this kind of fairly simple stuff. Truly, anyone who made it though high school should have the basic math and geometry tools to design helixes and just may need to dust off the cobwebs of their teen years a bit to recall what they learned.
The fact that some commercial makers advertising in MR magazine are getting grade calculations incorrect is shocking and sad testiment to a failure somewhere in our eduction system - or worse, purposeful misrepresentation of the specs of their products. Radus and grade are elementary geometry and math.
Jim - not a rocket scientist
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Who cares about math -- I'll never need to know that! I actually had a student throw that at me one day when I was a sub, 20+ years ago. I'd better behave so the mods don't beat me!
If I can figure out a way to draw a decent representation of what I want to build and then successfully post it for advice, it might make things easier for everyone. That's a big if, since I'm not a techie.
riogrande5761Most can't afford shipping for products sent across that big pond!
Since most common model rail products consumed in the US nowadays are no longer made in the US, your assertion is significantly flawed
Software Tools riogrande5761 Most can't afford shipping for products sent across that big pond!
riogrande5761
Most can't afford shipping for products sent across that big pond!
Actually not flawed. Wakey wakey, we don't pay for the shipping across the pond. Those costs are built into the product MSRP and street prices etc. We pay for shipping from the US based shop. Major difference!
Uncle_Bob Who cares about math -- I'll never need to know that!
Who cares about math -- I'll never need to know that!
What is that old saying, it's the little men with the slide rules who will some day rule the world? heh heh Just kidding.
Basic math will help you from getting scammed in every day life, like buying things. But you probably know that and are just in a cantankerous mood. Us old codger model railroaders can be like that!
I"m not really sure how I'd be building my grades on my layout without a little basic rise over run math. Those pesky numbers eh?
I think everyone makes a helix out to be way more complicated than it needs be. The critical part is getting the first turn done correctly - that's where you need to have a proper transition from flat to grade, and a smooth grade around the complete loop. The only other critical part is at the top, where you need a proper smooth transition from grade to flat. In between - there are ZERO calculations needed once you've determined the grade seperation and grade percentage. Think about it - after the first turn, which DOES have varying height risers, the rest up to the top are all EXACTLY the same height. You can mass produce them with a stop and nearly any kind of saw. Depending on the grade needed, you might be able to just use standard dimensional lumber - if 3 1/2 or 4 1.2 inches is the correct seperation - or make it easy on yourself and design the helix such that those numbers ARE the needed seperation.
Just remember to lay the track as you go! Little tough to go back and get smoothly laid track with minimal clearance.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I think everyone makes a helix out to be way more complicated than it needs be. The critical part is getting the first turn done correctly - that's where you need to have a proper transition from flat to grade, and a smooth grade around the complete loop. The only other critical part is at the top, where you need a proper smooth transition from grade to flat. In between - there are ZERO calculations needed once you've determined the grade seperation and grade percentage. Think about it - after the first turn, which DOES have varying height risers, the rest up to the top are all EXACTLY the same height. You can mass produce them with a stop and nearly any kind of saw. Depending on the grade needed, you might be able to just use standard dimensional lumber - if 3 1/2 or 4 1.2 inches is the correct seperation - or make it easy on yourself and design the helix such that those numbers ARE the needed seperation. Just remember to lay the track as you go! Little tough to go back and get smoothly laid track with minimal clearance. --Randy
I remember an article by Jim Hediger where he said he and a friend built a helix. They were proud of their work. Then the friend said something like, "So, when were you planning on laying the track?" DOH!!!
I was being facetious about needing to know math to figure grades (or anything else), but a lot of people seem not to care.
The grade math is the easy part - anyone who can;t divide by 100 probably shouldn;t be plugging their power supply into the wall for fear they might electrocute themselves.
Where people do mess up is figuring out how much of a run they have in a loop of a given radius. Circumference of a circle is Pi (mmmm, pie...wait, we were doing math..) times diameter. ANd I've seen enough questions asked here and elsewhere that show there are a lot of people who don't know that 22" RADIUS track makes a loop 44 inches in diameter.
For most model railroad use, 3.14 is a fine approximation of Pi. Worst case, by not using a more accurate value, you'll wind up with slightly LESS grade than you calculated. Which is almost always a good thing. Or just use the Pi button on the calculator.
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