Howdy,
New to the forum. Looking for some advice to add to the research I've already done.
Looking to build an HO layout in a room with an 11 foot ceiling which is our family room. Climate-controlled and comfortable environment year-round.
I'll need to lift the layout to the ceiling when it's not in use, so it needs to be as light as possible for lifting, but still built in such a way that it won't twist or warp. I can probably sit it on something when it is down (e.g. sawhorses or similar). Additionally I need to consider a lifting mechanism of some sort, preferably a simple one and it would be nice if it can (eventually) be motorised.
Overall layout size will be no larger than 10 x 10, more likely about 9 x 8. It could be a simple rectangle or it could be a bit more irregular than that - I haven't decided yet.
I'm seeking ideas primarily on building materials and benchwork design ideas to keep it light but rigid as well as lifting mechanisms (e.g. designs you've seen).
Two other things to remember (1) This will need to be the sort of layout I can drop and use. More than a few minutes set up time will probably consign it to not being used very often. (2) I'd like the benchwork phase to happen fairly quickly. I've got children I need to keep engaged so I can't take years - or even months - over it.
Let me know if there's anything I've left out that you might like to know.
A simpler solution would be to switch scales to N scale, buy sectional track and build a layout on a 32 x 80" hollow core door. Small enough that you likely won't have to raise it to the ceiling (you can e.g. reach across it from one side if pushed with one long side up against a wall or mounted on simple wall brackets), functionally the equivalent of a H0 scale 5 x 12 foot layout, hardly any time to get benchwork track operational - easy to do rapid prototyping and changes :-)
Smile, Stein
I don't have an engineering solution to offer you, but I would strongly discourage you from doing what you are proposing.
Aside from the displeasing aesthetics of a 10 x10 or 9 x 8 framework suspended against a ceiling 11 feet above the floor of your family room, the sheer danger of that monstrosity coming loose and injurning someone sitting below it is too great. Besides, even if you could make it safe, you are back to the issue of aesthetics. What would you create? A system of four pulleys on the ceiling with ropes hanging down to the floor?
Forget about suspending a layout from the ceiling of your family room and look for a solution that permits you to move the layout to a storage space somewhere else in your house when not in use.
Rich
Alton Junction
hi
Creative Layout Design by John Armstrong covers this subject. Printed in 1978 and 1980 it might be hard to get a copy.
I second previous posters, doable but not easy. A hollow core door or a fold-out bed could be alternatives.
Smile
Paul
How about intergrating the layout design with the room in a pleasing fashion. A shelf type layout along the walls seems to be a possible solution.
The layout need be only 18-24 inches wide for the most part. There are some books available that discuss shelf layouts in detail. Ian Rice is one noteable author.
I would second the idea of a shelf along the walls. If you model HO or smaller, most of the shelf (apart from yards) wouldn't have to be any wider than 1 foot. Build in bookshelves or an entertainment unit underneath for an attractive and practical use of space.
To take advantage of the middle of the room, consider a 4-to-5-foot peninsula that would fold up against the wall, Murphy-bed style. Enclose the sides with some furniture-grade lumber, cover the bottom with some nice paneling or wallboard, attach a framed photo or painting to it, and when it's folded up, it'll complement the room.
I know you came here for advice on how to accomplish your idea, not advice on what you should do instead. So if you do go the suspension route, I'd suggest keeping it small to keep down weight (no more than a 4x8) and minimize reach-in distance. You really don't want to lose your balance while reaching across something suspended from the ceiling! You might try "tray benchwork," which I detailed in my Spartanburg Subdivision track plan article in the October 2011 issue. Or an idea I used on part of my home layout that I call "sandwich benchwork" -- a sheet of thin Masonite thoroughly glued on both sides of an extruded foam sheet. Basically, it's home-brewed Gatorboard. Frame it in with corner molding. The result is rigid and self-supporting, and though it's not that light, it's lighter than other methods that provide the same amount of rigidity.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Phase 1 of my layout is a simple wood box frame made of 1x4 and 1x3 lumber. The layout base is 2-inch foam. This is a very light and stable frame. In my case, I built the layout on legs with casters so it could be rolled out of the way. In my trainroom / family room, we have a 45-degree roofline on both sides, with only a short kneewall, so the edges of the room near the roofline are kind of dead space anyway, since the roof comes down below head height. This is a 5x12 foot single-piece table, and it could be rolled easily, even over carpet. A rollaway layout is a consideration that should not be overlooked.
One thing I noticed over the years, though, is that my carefully-planned lightweight structure grew heavier and heavier as I added track, trains and scenery. While the weight of "traditional" heavyweight benchwork made from 2x4s and 3/4 inch plywood is dominated by the wood, a lightweight layout frame like mine shows how much the models and track themselves weigh. It's not insignificant, and if you're planning a liftable layout you would be well advised to over-design it as the weight will increase considerably during layout construction.
I'm not going to say "Don't do that," but I would only recommend it as a last resort. Another option might be to build a layout that folds up against the wall, hinged on one side. Yes, you'd have to remove the trains and tall structures, but it would be a lot easier to deal with than a pully-raised layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
steinjrA simpler solution would be to switch scales to N scale, buy sectional track and build a layout on a 32 x 80" hollow core door.
Dave Vollmer's N Scale Juniata Division does just this expanded now to (2) hollow core doors in N Scale built for portability, but with flextrack. The next day after you looked at the webpage -- Go back again to see what you missed the first time!
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Google ---- cable lift storage -----
Lee
Lee 1234 Google ---- cable lift storage -----
Then you have a mechanism for handling lifting a small 4 x 4 foot square platform.Or you can use a "Harken Hoister" for somewhat bigger platforms.
My skepticism about this project is not about whether a smallish platform can be raised to the ceiling. Of course layouts can be raised and lowered. That has been done many times before.
Search for "pulley" in in the "Search our community" search box in the right margin of the forum (choose "Model Railroader forums" in the drop down list first), and you find several examples of how things were done for smaller layouts.
But the OP seemingly was thinking about lifting and securing a fairly large (10 x 10 feet or 8 x 9 feet) platform, possibly irregular shaped., and maybe with a big operator pit in the middle (since the center of 10 x 10 layout would be unreachable from the sides).
In a family room. Where there presumably will be people underneath fairly often. And he seemingly wanted to get the building of this contraption out of the way quickly, instead of taking the time to engineer things properly. Don't know about you, but that combination seem less than optimal to me. Suspending large irregular shaped objects over the heads of people is not something one should rush into.
So I suggested an alternative perhaps more suited for impatient people who wants very quick results - not even having months to spare for a project - just take a hollow core door, put it in corner and build a layout on top of it using sectional track. Both fast and safe. Can be done in an afternoon to get to the point where you can lay track - and that includes a trip to the big box store to get a hollow core door and shelf brackets
But layouts certainly can be raised and suspended. Search the forums for "pulley" to see a number of previous discussions about this subject. Just don't rush the job if you want to suspend a layout bigger than a 4x8.
Hmmm...You want a 10x10 table to be light enough to lift up and down yet sturdy enough not to twist and such while being moved.
That type of table may have enough other uses in the world that I would consider posting the question on a carpentry forum website somewhere, if there is such a thing.
Maybe there are industrial uses for it and suppliers that sell such a thing.
Or I would strongly consider consulting a carpenter if not actually hire him/her to build it.
- Douglas
Like others, think shelf layout would look better
An aluminum frame and foam would be much lighter. An N gauge modular group affiliated with the sarasota model rail does this for their modular layout. Very light weight. very portable.
Have seen pulley system for standard gauge, so anything is possible. Whatever you decide keep us posted
Bill D
model in O. the Western NY and Ontario Railroad
I don´t know how these issues are handled in the US, but work safety regulations in my country would not allow anyone to stay any length of time beneath a load suspended from a ceiling and only held by ropes or wires without wearing a hard hat, unless the load is securely fastened or bolted in place.
Somehow I can´t picture people wearing a hard hat in a family room.
To the OP: Don´t underestimate the effort needed in constructing something which is safe to use. Even in a lightweight construction, a layout of the size you intend to build, will have a lot of lbs., which can cause a considerable amount of damage to the health of people staying under it.
Thanks for the replies so far - keep them coming.
Probably time thought that I made some clarifications lest they lead to continued misunderstandings:
(1) I'm not anticipating anybody to be sitting under the layout. That probably begs the question of why I don't just make it permanent. Our family room is effectively divided - one half sitting/piano/television, the other half open but useable for other purposes - but not a place we can put a permanently settled layout - not one to the size of my satisfaction anyway. So, safety is less of an issue than it would otherwise be, although obviously it still needs to stay up there.
(2) I don't like N scale as a scale for me. It doesn't suit me. It's a great scale, has a lot going for it, but in the end I expect to be working in HO. I've thought about N, looked at it, considered it seriously, in the end decided against it.
(3) Around the walls shelf style layout with width of 12-18 inches: thought about it seriously - really seriously. Read alot about such layouts and how easily they can be built. In the end the concept was dropped as it didn't get the stamp of approval of other(s) I share my abode with. In my economy, that's sufficient reason to move to other options.
Thanks to the guy(s) who gave me the tip about searching for "pulley" and those who have given me links to websites with hoists and the like. Gives me plenty to go with.
In the the photo below the table in the foreground is 18' x 6'. Two of us carried it around the house from the garage to the trainroom with little effort. It is relatively light and does not twist at all. It is solid because it is put together using lap joints that are glued and screwed.
In the photo below you can see two 2" x 4"s suspended by chains from the ceiling. I use this to take the canopy off my truck. I back into the garage, place the 2" x 4"s between the truck and canopy and hook them to to the chains and drive the truck out minus the canopy. The whole process takes a couple of minutes. If I have the canopy off the truck for any length of time, I simply lift it up higher by moving the hooks in the 2" x 4"s up as many links as required.I move one corner at a time a few links and three trips around will get it to the ceiling. I can then walk around under it.
Using the same system to lift a layout to the ceiling would work well. It would take seconds to move the hooks on the table up as many links as required. The holes in the ceiling the hooks make can be filled with a small dab of Dap when it comes time to move and the hooks must come out.
In the photo it is also a masonite storage spot. It is my fascia for the layout. The chain is rated at 350 LBS. That is1400LBS. to hold a 200LB canopy and a couple of 2" x 4"s. Chain is cheap.
I have built things using steel studs as they are very light, however it is hard to get steel stud framework together that doesn't twist. For that reason while I would never hesitate to use them on a layout that doesn't get moved much, I would not use them in this situation.
The construction of a table that would be used in this situation must be engineered right. Collapse could be disastrous. That being said, if built right I would not hesitate to suspend a layout and lower it on to some solid legs when in use. The chain does not have to hang down below the layout. Just put the hanging bit's on the top of the table after it is lifted up.
Your rolling stock would need to come off or be laid on its side as there will be quite a slope on the layout when lifting it up.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Many years ago I worked at a professional model shop in New York and we built a contoured model of a military training area for the US Army. It was made of ¼’ plywood ribs or webs in an egg crate fashion, each rib about 12” apart forming a 12” grid. They were slotted/notched to overlap and glued with square wood glue strips at each joint. The ribs were about 6-8” high and formed a very rigid and very light structure about 8' x 8'. We covered the top (ground surface of the model) with burlap like material glued to the tops of the ribs. You could do a similar structure and use one of the structural foam board products for the layout top and actually have it set into the sides and resting on top of the egg crate. This would provide a good basis for your layout, however, as was mentioned in other responses the weight would grow as you add track, structures and other scenic materials and then the rolling stock.
For aesthetic purposes you could cover the underside with a lightweight material so it would look like the ceiling in your room. That could be a white fabric or light Styrofoam sheet.
I would suggest you build a small test sample (about 3’ x 3’) to see how you feel about it as to its weight and rigidity. You will be amazed at how strong this is.
I am not recommending this type of layout either, as it does have many problems outside of the normal layout issues, but I believe it is doable. Your lifting and securing methods are another entirely different problem, but I would recommend using a very small diameter aircraft cable (a 1/8” diameter cable can support a substantial weight; but get the specs on them.) such as those sold by McMaster Carr. Check their website.
Good luck with this project and if you do go ahead with it, keep us posted as to your approach and progress.
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Even if the layout is made of the lightest, strongest aerogel, you'll be putting heavy things on it. An HO boxcar weighted to NMRA standards is about a quarter pound, wrapped in hard, pointy plastic. Locomotives can weigh several pounds. So just suspending 100 boxcars only is already 25 pounds. Even without the whole railroad falling, what about the damage a single falling loco from 11 ft up could do to one of your kids? By the time it hits the floor [and ignoring air resistance], it's several pounds of weight moving at 18 miles per hour.
If you want to be rational about it, think about comparing these two quantities:
The probability of a child being hurt is unknown but is certainly greater than zero (will it always go up level? is there some chance the invisible joists you're attaching it to may be partially rotted? Might an eyebolt pull out of your layout?). So you'd have to see if quantity 1 is much greater than quantity 2.
Then you'd have to ask yourself what kind of parent would have to do this sort of risk/reward calculation for what is supposed to be a fun hobby. Many people have moved away from the old style island layouts to narrow shelf layouts -- greater "sincerity" [pass once through a scene], longer runs, better accessibility, ability to follow a train like an engineer rather than sit in a center console watching trains go by, etc. Given your constraints, you could investigate making shelf modules removable: have them attach to a shelf track system or build them to sit on existing furniture. I'm building a couple of 4' x 2' modules that have padded feet on the bottom, so I can work on them on a dedicated space in my main layout area (where they fit on a shelf) but can also bring to other rooms to work on at a table.
Sir Madog I don´t know how these issues are handled in the US, but work safety regulations in my country would not allow anyone to stay any length of time beneath a load suspended from a ceiling and only held by ropes or wires without wearing a hard hat, unless the load is securely fastened or bolted in place. Somehow I can´t picture people wearing a hard hat in a family room. To the OP: Don´t underestimate the effort needed in constructing something which is safe to use. Even in a lightweight construction, a layout of the size you intend to build, will have a lot of lbs., which can cause a considerable amount of damage to the health of people staying under it.
Just curious, but do safety inspectors in your country routinely come to homes to make sure everyone who happens to be sitting beneath a raised platform, or an attic door, or a garage door, etc. is wearing a hard hat?
What country do you live in?
- Harry
If you decide to go with a 'flying layout', I'd suggest using some kind of weighted pulley system, where the default position is up. If something goes wrong (short of a catastrophic failure), the layout would rise up instead of falling down.
A better idea might be a Murphy bed style layout, where most (or all) of the layout folds up into a cabinet when not in use. You could even have some stationary staging/storage trackage inside the cabinet so you wouldn't have to be handling trains between sessions. I vaguely remember seeing a trackplan for something like this in a Kalmbach book. Although the specifics escape me, the plan was most likely one of John Armstrong's ideas. (Edit: It was the Murphy Bed and Credenza, from John Armstrong on Creative Layout Design, Kalmbach, March 1978)
It would take a lot of planning to make a Murphy layout workable - possibly having removable buildings and such - but that might just be the plan that best fits your needs. You could even have two opposing cabinets, where the respective parts fold down to meet in the middle.
I tried something like this a few years ago, the layout was small, at 4'-6" x 6'-6" using 1x3 framers and a 3/16" plywood baseboard resting on sawhorses, it was supposed to be lifted up to the garage when not in us. I practice even with a pulley system it was VERY heavy to lift and difficult to keep level in transit. In the end I feared it was only a matter of time before something failed and it came crashing down, so it got left on the ground. If 4x6 was difficult I cant imagine 10x10.
Maybe something more like this would be appropriate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRszCj3fqJ8&list=LLrUkVNWoC7txLnsbdfOQFgA&index=14&feature=plpp_video
Fold down layout
Have fun with your trains
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