Hope all are having a great day; it's sure been good in Oklahoma with the NFL Draft and the first NBA playoff win for the Thunder Thursday night over the Lakers. Well, my day isn't going as well.
Been switching from twin-coil switch machines to Tortoise machines and can't seem to get enough torque to move the points. Switches are BK Enterprises that I handlaid. The points worked fine with twin-coils, but can't get movement with Tortoise. Already gone from .025 piano wire to .032 and that didn't work.
I guess I'l go rework the switches some to try and free them up but before I did that I thought I remembered somebody having a similar problem and they used small brass tubing around the wire and that provided some extra power. Am I dreaming or do some people use that technique?
Would appreciate any suggestions that might solve the problem. Thanks in advance for the help.
Joey
Twin coils can put out a high impact while stall motor apply a steady pressure.
The problem can be that the switches have some binding in them that the high impact can't overcome.
The problem can be that the linkage for the Tortise is too long and the wire will bend before the switch throws.
The problem can be that there is binding in the hole or slot the wire passes through.
I would test it by trying to throw it with a wire from above. I would make a fixture that has a pivot point as high above the switch as the tortise pivot is below the switch. Then put a piece of wire in it and try to throw it from above. If the switch throws then the problem is in the linkage
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I assume that the new wire was piano wire. Nothing else will work. I used larger wire than that and still had to adjust some turnouts. The tortise wants really smooth switches. I changed some close to the edge to caboose hand throws. It was easier. The length of the throw wire also makes a difference. I have not tried the brass tubing as a stifener, I just got heaver piano wire. Good luck.
Joey,
Sound like one of maybe all of a few things may be happening here. First remove the Tortoise and with the leads hooked up of course make sure it operates correctly that the wire makes a full swing. Next have yo bent the wire exactly as i the diagram that comes with the instruction sheet, the reason for the bends the way they are is so you have clearance and that the fulcrum operates correctly. a wire that just has a 90 degree bend on the end will not work properly. With that out of the way go to the turnout and I use a pencil or something similar like a pick etc.and place the tip of it in the hole where the wire pokes through and gently try and push the points from side to side operating the turnout with the pencil. If you feel any sort of resistance you need to fine tune the turnout to operation smooth operation. The final thing I would check is to make sure you have the Tortoise mounted in the correct position, if it is too far forward or too far backward it will bind. The last step is with the Tortoise in place and everything hooked up try sliding the fulcrum up or down to adjust the swing of the wire. You may not be getting enough movement.
I do not mount Tortoise switch machine form underneath the layout as instructed but rather use a method that a board member "Chuck" has shown us. Mount your tortoise on a small piece of 1/4" plywood approx 3 time the width of the Tortoise a 1-3/4"w x 4"L pie should work fine. Mount the Tortoise to the plywood with four small wood screws I think #6's should do the trick but not sure check the size first. now install the larger .032 wire but make sure to make it a few inches longer then it needs to be.Drill two starter holes 3" on center on either side of the hole that the wire will go through bt back approx. 3/4" and you can start tow drywall or deck screws with your fingers.
Make sure you drill out the hole in the throwbar of the turnout. Now insert the wire up through the hole while holding the switch machine in your hand
Here's the really cool part of using Chuck's method, holding the Tortoise with one hand throw the toggle switch that operates the tortoise with the other to check for proper movement. If your not hooked up electrically you can push the mechanism of the Tortoise with your finger but operating it with the switch works best. You may notice that you need to move the Tortoise forward or back word or left or right to get it centered and working properly once you have it in place take your cordless drill with a Phillips screw driver tip and run the screws down into the piece of plywood mounted to the Tortoise and your done. The holes from the drywall screws can later be covered up when you apply ground cover.
I can almost guarantee that if you try this method once you'll never mount a tortoise any other way, absolutely one of the best tips I have ever seen. I see no reason why your turnouts should not function properly if you check these simple steps. they worked before they should work now it has to be something really simple. Sorry for the long winded reply but this is a tip I think you will get a lot out of.
goodsptsed Switches are BK Enterprises that I handlaid. The points worked fine with twin-coils, but can't get movement with Tortoise. Already gone from .025 piano wire to .032 and that didn't work.
Switches are BK Enterprises that I handlaid. The points worked fine with twin-coils, but can't get movement with Tortoise. Already gone from .025 piano wire to .032 and that didn't work.
The good news is that Tortoises work well with BK Enterprises turnouts. Almost all my turnouts are BKs powered with Tortoises and they work. So, it is your technique that's the problem.
Advice? If I may repeat what others may have said before me ... Make sure the points are free-moving (don't spike too far beyond the frog). Use heavier wire (but you seemed to have done that, but you might need something heavier). Make sure the hole through the roadbed allows free movement of the wire and the check the alignment so movement is perpendicular to the rails. Move the Tortoise's fulcrum as needed to adjust throw.
Mark
Take a pic of the installation. Also is the plastic lever slider installed?
Springfield PA
I don't know much about BK Enterprise switches but if they have springs in the points similar to Peco points then this could be your problem. I only say this because a friend had a similar problem with Peco points until he removed the springs.
Hope this helps.
I don't think that the BK's are sprung. My understanding is that they are pre-laid rail without ties. You add your own ties. The one's I've seen in an LHS didn't look like it had springs.
Taken from BK's website:
this, of course, is the frog assembly only. There are no blades attached."
I've only used the kits.
Hi, guess I'm the guy with the wire in the brass tube... I don't use the tubing for stiffness, just for a wire-guide. The tubing must be large enough to let the wire slide back and forth without any binds. Fastening the tube to the roadbed just means that it cannot shift and get in the way of the turnout throwbar or the magnet/motor. If you curve the tubing, any shifting will affect the effective length of the wire, and thus make the throw off-kilter.
Is there any chance your wire is binding at the fulcrum? Fatter wire may require you to widen the slot or hole a bit.
George
Thanks all:I sure appreciate the help and ideas. I just got finished putting in a second Tortoise/Hare combo and I took the traditional steps everyone has suggested -- used the drilling template, used a 1/2 inch hole to make sure nothing binds, bent the wire exactly like the diagram, cleaned out all the small debris around the throwbar -- and still not enough movement to throw the points. Worked over the throwbar and points really well so they are very free as well.I did have one response ask me whether the wire was piano wire and what I'm using is K&S wire marked "music" wire with a .032 diameter, which is considerably more than the .025 that comes in the Tortoise. However, to make sure that isn't an issue, I've ordered "official" piano wire in two larger sizes, .035 and .040, and will try those.I will also check the wire at the fulcum. Are you saying the fit could be too tight and thus be binding right there?Once again, thanks for the help.
By the way what is the distance between the Torti's and the turnout? Is it through plywood only or is it several inches through foam? As I noted earlier a picture would help big time if you have a camera available.
The switch machine is a basic lever so something fundamental is probably going on and the more info available the better.
Binding at the fulcrum? Yes, I had a case of that with a Rix 2-coil motor that I was using some very fat wire in. The slot wasn't wide enough to allow the wire to move easily, so the Peco turnout wouldn't flip. A small touch with a fine file on the plastic fixed it. Don't get carried away with the widening.
If you have a thick subroadbed, the 1/2" hole through it may also need to be lengthened to accomodate the arching of the wire. Your new stiffer wire may indeed be the answer, as it will arch less.
Back again:Well, we're making progress and part of the problem was something I learned in physics years ago but failed to remember. I had left the wire thru the throwbar as it was, not thinking that would affect where the force was applied. Once I cut down the wire to just above the throwbar (to actual operation length) it did make a slight difference and now I am getting better contact. But still without nudging the points they won't throw, there is a catch and I presume it's just the area around the throwbar still had something catching. I'll clean and scrape it some more and then when I get the stronger wire I will see if that makes a difference. I really believe the .0350 wire will be ideal after seeing where I have arrived.By the way, for your information, the track in question is laid on 1-by clear white pine (3/4 inch), so the thickness is not an issue. When I was younger and had more time, I handlaid everything on the white pine and it has really lasted well. It's just that these handlaid switches (yes they came preassembled without ties) are a lot tighter than some of those I've bought and it just takes some power to move the points. The old twin-coils would just jar them and there was no problem, but the stall motors don't seem to have that force.We'll keep trying and let you know what happens. Thanks again for all you guys' help.
Once again do you have a camera to provide pics with? That might help.
I had the same issue with Peco turnouts. In the end what worked was going to the .032 wire and, in some cases, removing the point spring. Why the Tortoise works the point spring on some and not others probably has to do with the geometry between the Tortoise and the turnout, something I struggle to be consistent with.
OP hasn't been onlne since this thread it seems.
This thread is 2nd time today something I almost feinted from seeing something based on just a quick check.
I have some old Switchmaster stall type machines. I bet they would throw that turnout!
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