In order to both hide trains and make use of sp ace, I have been thinking of building a station over the tracks; an urban setting with a road around the station and the road-station system sitting on 4" long pillars of some type. Granted it would be a smoky mess for those at track level, but what would the support system look like for a early 20th century GN or PRR system? Any books or references I might check or am I asking for trouble and should junk the idea?
thanks
teakoil
A lot of stations were built 'over the tracks' or at least the concourse extended over the tracks. Our club has a false front depot building with a concourse extending over 4 tracks. This works out fine, and looks great.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The station over the tracks, on something like a widened road bridge, has been a common theme in MR Trackside Photos through the years. Stations on bridgework over the rails are very common in land-strapped Japan. Probably the one I know best is the (now demolished) Pennsylvania Station in New York City.
As for the smoky mess, if the steamers can stop under open sky it's not a major problem. If the covered area is only a few hundred (scale) meters long, it will only be a problem if the locomotives routinely park there. Of course, New York City attacked the problem by mandating electrification.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
There is a layout in this months MR that has just what you are talking about. Well not a station over the tracks but the city is over the tracks. Look on page 72 bottom pic.
Now if this was a "real" station built over the tracks then I would imagine there would be 12 or 16 inch columns every 30 or 40 feet appart on the platforms with stairs leading up to the station proper. also some steel beams supporting the floor of the station would be a must. This technology was availavble back in the 30s and 40s but I would imagine that the columns would be stone, larger and closer together if the station was built before then. Good luck and happy modeling
Mike
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Hi Mike: Thanks; this is exactly the info I was looking for.
pat
If I am not mistaken the tunnels to Penn Station in New York were finished in the early 1900's around 1905-7 and were always electrified. Trains stopped in the Meadows east of Newark at Manhattan Transfer where steam was removed and DD1 side rod third rail engines pulled the trains into New York and over to Sunny Side yard. The reverse happened on westbound trains. Numerous covered tracks existed in many cities at ground level with various forms of canopies. Broad Street, 30th St. for PRSL trains in Philly and Reading Terminal, Altoona, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh on the PRR. Union Station in Chicago had steam do what you want to do from both ends. Burlington, PRR Alton on the south end. Milwaukee on the north and some others. Same with C&NW station. My understanding is that smoke generation in those cases was frowned upon and time off was given if excessive. PRR stations had a raised center section over the track to capture as much as possible and ventilate it (good luck on that!). I doubt any underground trackage utilized natural ventliation and needed some form of capture and removal. Cities had employees known as smoke inspectors whose job was to record time, date and engine # and fine railroads for excessive smoke.
teakoilIn order to both hide trains and make use of sp ace, I have been thinking of building a station over the tracks; an urban setting with a road around the station and the road-station system sitting on 4" long pillars of some type. Granted it would be a smoky mess for those at track level, but what would the support system look like for a early 20th century GN or PRR system? Any books or references I might check or am I asking for trouble and should junk the idea?
I built the Walther's Union station above 4 passenger tracks and one freight track. At street level a commuter line services the station.
Doc
teakoil In order to both hide trains and make use of sp ace, I have been thinking of building a station over the tracks; an urban setting with a road around the station and the road-station system sitting on 4" long pillars of some type. Granted it would be a smoky mess for those at track level, but what would the support system look like for a early 20th century GN or PRR system? Any books or references I might check or am I asking for trouble and should junk the idea?
Teakoil, perhaps this is something along the lines of what you are thinking about...but on a more limited scale.
These shots were taken while the scene was still under construction, so some structural elements and track detailing weren't in place yet.
CNJ831
SMassey There is a layout in this months MR that has just what you are talking about. Well not a station over the tracks but the city is over the tracks. Look on page 72 bottom pic. Now if this was a "real" station built over the tracks then I would imagine there would be 12 or 16 inch columns every 30 or 40 feet appart on the platforms with stairs leading up to the station proper. also some steel beams supporting the floor of the station would be a must. This technology was availavble back in the 30s and 40s but I would imagine that the columns would be stone, larger and closer together if the station was built before then. Good luck and happy modeling Mike
A view I once found of the covered (by Park Avenue) approaches to Grand Central Station showed that the 'roof' was supported by about a gazillion H columns on (approximately) 25 foot centers. At least part of it was in place in 1913. Unfortunately, I've mislaid the link. The upper level platforms were each fed by a single ramp down from the north side of the concourse.
New York City subways (cut and cover, just under the streets) were similar, except that on some of the lines the column rows between tracks were filled in, presumably to prevent problems with headlights between trains on adjacent tracks.
CNJ831, that's a near-perfect example of the sort of thing I referred to earlier. Probably the biggest example was on George Allen's Tuxedo Junction - the pre-WWII Marklin Stuttgart (I think) station above a dozen or so platform tracks. (And boy, did I date myself with that one!)
Thanks for the locations; I'll check on these.
Teakoil
Hi Doc: What is the elevation between the tracks and the ceiling?
Beautiful: yes, yes , yes thats it.
Got it; thanks
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Here is a picture of my Main layout station which is submerged below the street. The important thing about building a station like this is having enough supporting columns in the right places to make it look believable There should be support columns at least every 30' to support the tremendous loads of the street and the station building
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CNJ831 teakoil In order to both hide trains and make use of sp ace, I have been thinking of building a station over the tracks; an urban setting with a road around the station and the road-station system sitting on 4" long pillars of some type. Granted it would be a smoky mess for those at track level, but what would the support system look like for a early 20th century GN or PRR system? Any books or references I might check or am I asking for trouble and should junk the idea? Teakoil, perhaps this is something along the lines of what you are thinking about...but on a more limited scale. These shots were taken while the scene was still under construction, so some structural elements and track detailing weren't in place yet. CNJ831
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