A day or so ago I posted a request for help in planning a city for my N scale layout. I'm not complaining about minimal response, I'm pleased that the response I got directed me to a book on planning city scenery and that was that.
But...
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question... So I went looking for information and I called the answer people at my local historical society. The curator there was kind enough to pull somethings together for me to borrow and as soon as I have raked it over the coals and typed up notes and a synopsis, I'll gladly share with anyone who wants the info.
Might I suggest a one month (or more) subscription to the Rensselaer Railroad Heritage Site (click here for Membership Info). Over the years the student members have compiled a lot of prototype information on scenery construction as can be seen in the following list (the links won't be of use unless you are a member).
I might also add taking a look at the Urban Modelers SIG on Yahoo
Co-owner of the proposed CT River Valley RR (HO scale) http://home.comcast.net/~docinct/CTRiverValleyRR/
As I have several urban and town areas to deal with in my proposed layout (now in planning) I picked up some USGS maps in 7.5-minute, 1:24,000-scale quadrangle series of the areas I am interested in. The maps were created in the 1960s with updates ranging from 1970 to 1995. Just about every street and building (and railroad) is shown on these maps (plus water features, elevation, etc.) They are available online from the USGS on-line Store <link to topographic maps order page> for about $8 or there is a free PDF download.
I also use either Google Maps or Microsoft Maps in satellite mode to get a sense of the buildings. Street views are also available for many locations.
Hope this helps.
Doc
Dave's Electric Railroads website has roughly 100 traction systems photographed, and; traction and interurbans traversed towns, municipalities, and even some countryside.
http://www.davesrailpix.com/
A lot of the photographs, such as our "Fallen Flag," Johnstown Traction Company, have city prototype in the background. Pacific Electric, Lehigh Valley Transit, Connecticut Company, and the Pittsburgh & Philadelphia transportations systems are also some good starting points here.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Walthers lists the physical dimensions of many structures on their web site, in the catalog entry. I used this info and measurements of kits I already had to produce actual-size templates, including where the doors were. I found it was helpful to lay out the actual building footprints on the layout when figuring out how to place them.
I'm glad to see people actually planning towns and roads along with their layouts. I almost forgot to do this, and caught it at the last minute. I made a few track plan changes to accomodate reasonable roadways, and was much happier as a result. Sometimes, the urge to lay track and run trains is so great that we forget to include scenery, particularly roads and structures, in our planning.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley I'm glad to see people actually planning towns and roads along with their layouts. I almost forgot to do this, and caught it at the last minute. I made a few track plan changes to accomodate reasonable roadways, and was much happier as a result. Sometimes, the urge to lay track and run trains is so great that we forget to include scenery, particularly roads and structures, in our planning.
One of the benefits of modeling a prototype is that the towns, streets and bridges are already placed for us.
PB&J RR A day or so ago I posted a request for help in planning a city for my N scale layout. <snip> That wasn't exactly an answer to my question...
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question...
I guess that begs the question, what was your question then? I thought the posters who responded did a good job of answering the question that you asked (one of the reasons I didn't post, was the responses covered virtually everything I would have said.)
There is no one "pattern" for laying out a town. Unless you have a HUGE depth to your layout, in most cases you won't hit the homes of richest people since they probably would have lived 20-60 real feet from the railroad tracks (if you are modeling HO) and their homes wouldn't be modeled. So arrange the railroad related items where you want them to go (depot, water tower, section house, loading dock, etc), then arrange the industrial structures where they need to go (factories, coal dumps, loaders, storage tanks/silos). Put the oldest part of "downtown" closest to the depot, build the newest, best part of downtown and the best housing growing away the old downtown in a direction away from the industries, the lower quality part of downtown and the lower quality housing toward the industries. The pattern of the town is driven more by the locations of industries than the railroad tracks (other than a yard). The area around a station was valued by businesses up until about WW2.
Or pick a prototype and do what the real builders did. While the general rule is that the more well to do, the further from downtown, that isn't an absolute rule. In the area I am modeling the railroad ran right under the richest man's back yard and his house was next to what could be considered a "dangerous" industry. Just outside Wilmington, DE the DuPont estate had the Rockland branch of the P&R railroad run across the "backyard" between their mansion and the river. In order to not see the trains, a "tunnel" was built over the railroad tracks for the length of the lawn of the estate so they could see to the river without seeing a train. The dangerous industry was the DuPont's gunpowder mill which was immediately adjacent to the estate (and the mill did occaisionally explode).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman Or pick a prototype and do what the real builders did. While the general rule is that the more well to do, the further from downtown, that isn't an absolute rule. In the area I am modeling the railroad ran right under the richest man's back yard and his house was next to what could be considered a "dangerous" industry.
Or pick a prototype and do what the real builders did. While the general rule is that the more well to do, the further from downtown, that isn't an absolute rule. In the area I am modeling the railroad ran right under the richest man's back yard and his house was next to what could be considered a "dangerous" industry.
President Kidder of the Nevada County Narrow Gauge railroad had his mansion immediately adjacent to the mainline and railroad yard at Grass Valley, CA. Made it easier to monitor the railroad's goings-on.
Mark
I too am planning a layout with several City scenes. My own research has shown that the industries you plan along your rail line are likely to dictate more about your urban scenes than you think. My layout will be set in 1957. Much of the prototype area I plan to model has changed dramatically since then. Thus, I have the luxury that most of my layout viewers never saw or no longer remember the appearance of the areas I will model. I believe that by including fair representations of one or two structures and street alignments that still exist in each scenic area, the average viewer will readily recognize and appreciate the modeled area even if it is otherwise fairly innaccurate. Unless you model a prototype scene that still exists in the present day, you have quite a bit more license than you think.
Hornblower
If you model a large city, the rears of the buildings will face the track. If you model a town, the fronts of at least some of the buildings will face the tracks.
dehusmanIf you model a large city, the rears of the buildings will face the track. If you model a town, the fronts of at least some of the buildings will face the tracks.
I have exchanged PM's with the OP (and made peace with him).
Some relevant information not given in the City Planning thread. He is not modeling a big city, but rather a town. His description of Penneburgh from another post in another thread (his blog thread) was
PB&J what passes for a city in these parts (OP is from Ohio) ... A real Downtown, two neighborhoods, a couple of decent sized employers- Penneburgh Plastic Sprue, Inc. and Crowell, Collier & Sons, Publishers.... , police (Officer Paddy O'Farniture) and fire, and some cottage industry...".
what passes for a city in these parts (OP is from Ohio) ... A real Downtown, two neighborhoods, a couple of decent sized employers- Penneburgh Plastic Sprue, Inc. and Crowell, Collier & Sons, Publishers.... , police (Officer Paddy O'Farniture) and fire, and some cottage industry...".
The OP has not really communicated clearly (as far as I have seen) what year/period he is modeling, but in another posts he mentions that an industry has been in existence "since 1932", so it is post-1932, anyways.
Penneburgh is apparently not a prototypical place (or at least - I apparently don't find any town info on Penneburgh or Penneburg while googling), at least not under that name. I have asked by PM if the OP has some prototypical town he is considering to look like what he wants Penneburgh to look like.
By googling for Ohio Historical Photos I found this web site which may or may not have photos of interest to the OP (or other people interested in modeling Ohio towns in earlier ages):
http://ohsweb.ohiohistory.org/ohiopix/.
Smile, Stein, feeling much more healthy and much less grumpy today ...
I have not been as clear as I should have been, I've written so much about this project in various places that it is hard to remember what I explained where, and that while important, my project isn't the only one that comes to mind on a site dedicated to people doing so much in the name of model railroading... (though I can't imagine why.. me, me, me...LOL)
So let me give you the layout at a glance:
Name: Penneburgh, Briarwood, & Jameson
Scale: N (1/160)
Size: 10' x 7'6"
Prototype: Freelanced fictional connecting the CCC&StL to the B&LE
Locale: Somewhere on the edge Appalachia..
Era: 1905 to late transition.
Style: L shaped walk around.
Mainline run: 2 track main 88 feet (est.) combined
Minimum Radius: 11"
Minimum Turnout: #4
Minimum grade: 2%
Benchwork: tabletop
Height: 29.5" (comfortable to view and work on from the wheelchair that is an inevitable eventual fact of my formerly very active life.)
Roadbed: 1.5" extruded foam insulation board.
Track: code 100 flex track
Scenery: sculpted foam, plaster, ground foam
Backdrop: painted foamboard hopefully one day full cycloramic.
Control: DC for now...
The flavor would be:
Penneburgh- small town Americana...
Briarwood- a logging and coal comunity. Rural doesn't quite say it, think Tommy Lee Jones asking "which of you tobaccer chawing, chainsaw jockey's, is the most backwoods, country, frog gigger out here?"
Jameson- railroad company town...
None of the towns are real, but are loosely based on real places and events... Penneburgh is loosely based on turn of the 20th century Springfield, Ohio- my home town. Briarwood is loosely based on places in Kentucky I visited often when I was younger (Kiniconnick, Carbon Glow, Indian Creek), but Jameson is total fiction, just the rail baron in me coming out to play....
I've gotten some comments on another thread about the way I've laid out my ward and the particular toy train look of it or something to that effect... I'm not so interested in operation that I'm going to run by the book switching, I was more concerned with staging and display storage... Though I have decided after much persuasion to lay track in stages:
Outer main and spurs, inner main and spurs, and keep working on a yard plan that fits the available space an serves my needs as well as offering some operating interest... (though my needs would be served quite well/with the current layout, I do get the point about future interest.
Thank you all for your excellent help...
dehusmanOr pick a prototype and do what the real builders did. While the general rule is that the more well to do, the further from downtown, that isn't an absolute rule.
Dear Dave, this is part of the truth.
Before Henry Ford and his model T came into play and before most interurbans were build, people had just their legs to move; so expensive resedential area's were often developped near the depot. And yes, for obvious reasons they were build a 100 feet away from the tracks, no smoke, less noise etc, so just beyond the shelf you'r working on. The other side of the tracks, or connected with a short branch, were reserved for industrial or warehousing zones. And for housing area's for "lower class" workers of course. Cumberland (B&O) is a nice exemple. Remember most railroads were build well before the turn of the century; urbanisation followed or went along.
In the 20th century all things were different. Interurbans and the model T made suburbanisation possible. No need to live or work close to the depot anymore and the posh houses were often transformed into small offices. Or waiting their demise and "new"town devellopers. Highway-exits are the hotspots today. Living not too far way from an exit, in a rural surrounding (not really rural of course, manure smells too, and nice shoppingmalls and schools are far away) is the rich man's dream.
I feel that this is all about LDE's, do what was done in the town you'r modelling. There may be general rules but even more exeptions.
Paul
so what makes a city in Kansas? a grain elevator, a church and a pizza hut?
grizlump
grizlump9what passes for a city in these parts
Beside the question TMHO,
you could call it a town, but as long as moving in town was done by hoof, being near the depot or docks was important. Some places became city's; but the model T and the highway changed it all. High prized real estate, trafficjams and parking tickets (and poluted air) could be avoided a couple of miles down the road. Shop and business owners, guy's like you and me, all started looking to the surrounding area's. That's the difference between for and after WW1. It happened every where; in Kansas city, in Prairieville, in Wayland or Olds
Futher away from the city's are still real rural area's, still possible in Kansas, hard to find in southern California or along the Hudson river. We city folks tend to call Marin County or the Hamptons rural.
All theories, just pick a town along the railroad you like and model the railroadsurroundings(LDE) there.
Good luck, keep smiling