In the weeks ahead I should be getting to putting down some scenery so I've been looking at various articles about making water. One of the things I run across is the statement that a river and/or lake should be created on the plywood base of the layout, not dug out of the foam. But no one explains why - instead there are a lot of cautions related to using the plywood as the base for the water - like make sure you seal the plywood with spackle or something similar so there are no leaks. Can't this all just be done on the foam without having to dig down to the plywood base?
MR has had a few articles, and even more side articles about this in the last year or so I've been a subscriber. One common theme in all these it seems is that at the water level, the foam isn't thick. Meaning it's not like they're cutting down through 4 inches of foam. I haven't really heard talk of having to seal the plywood with paint, but most often it is painted in darker colors to help make the water body look deeper. Foam is usually cut out to form the banks. One method I liked used Water Magic or something, but they painted the plywood base in various levels of brown paint to simulate depth, then tinted the Magic Water in various layers, i.e. first layer tinted dark blue, the next layer tinted medium-dark blue, second to last layer tinted medium blue, and last layer left clear.
The most I've seen for 'sealing' wasn't much. The boundry between the foam banks, plywood base, and the stops used at the end of the river were just sealed with a thin bead of latex calk. As explained it's used as, well just the way I said it, a stop so the Magic Water does not leak out of every little pin ***-sized hole and go everywhere but your lake/river.
Just as a side note, some articles also talked of using tinted shilac for water, which was as I thought some of the most realistic looking water. But I've also grown up in an area where the rivers where clear enough to see the bottom and the lake was clean enough to see down 10-15 feet. Nothing like the ocean, but also nothing like a river so brown you can't see your hand once it's under the surface.
I think it may be more of a thing where a water body can be done by carving out the foam, it's just not that common of a method.
Hope I helped.
Some products that are used for water could be damaging to foam unless the foam is completely sealed. Otherwise, I see no reason why you can't use foam. Gouging out the foam is not a neat process and it's difficult to get a smooth bottom for your river or lake. Maybe start with a thin layer of foam and build up the banks with thicker foam.
Plywood also needs to be sealed, partly to prevent absoption of any liquids, but mostly to hide the grain of the plywood. I would seal both foam and plywood with a water-based primer paint. Paintable caulk for the larger gaps.
Isn't Magic Water the stuff sold on e-Bay by the guy who makes it? (Dave Williams, I think?) If so, it's really good stuff! You could always shoot him a question about it's use.
Whatever product you use, make sure EVERYTHING is well sealed! Most of the liquid-type water products are thin enough to find the smallest opening. No fun wondering where all the water went, only to find a lake on the floor under the layout! Arrrrgh!!
Darrell, quiet...for now
Didn't Oscar Meyer just pass away? So, why do we have all this baloney?
There is nothing wrong with digging down through foam to create your river bed. I don't have any plywood under my foam, so I just cut down a ways. The foam does have a "beaded up" appearance, which I didn't care for, so I covered it with plaster cloth:
This isn't a particularly nice riverbed either, but it can be painted, and "stones" can be added:
Finally, pour your water. I used Envirotex Lite for mine, several pours of about an eighth inch thickness each. I added a bit of acrylic paint to each pour to give it "depth" and eliminate that clear-as-glass look. Finally, some tall grass and water fowl.
This was my first model water, by the way. I don't consider myself an expert, but it's a pretty easy technique and not hard to get good results.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Misseure Beasley ,
That stream is absolutley gorgeous, looks like it is out of a high class rennisance painting.
You are a Master.
Johnboy out...............
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
Here're more pictures from my trestle project with river.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
I agree with MisterBeasley on the use of plaster or plaster cloth for the base. BTW, excellent work MrB.
As others mention a foam base is fine, but only if it is relatively flat as descibed. Of coarse i would paint and scenic the bottom and banks prior to pouring the Envirotex lite. The resin can be tinted to gain an even better sense of cloudy, murky depth.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Several years ago, I built a small Thomas layout for my grandson. The base was 2" foam. I recessed the track into the foam. I was able to get a fairly smooth surface in the recessed areas, but it took a lot of work! If I were doing it again, I think I'd take it outside and use my router!
For a small creekbed like Mr Beasley's, gouging out the foam and covering it with plaster cloth is a great solution. His pictures show how nice it turned out, so don't be afraid to do the same thing.
I was thinking of a larger body of water, like a lake or river, when I suggested using flat foam for a base. Gouging out a sizeable area would be a lot of work, and use a lot of plaster cloth to smooth out the results.
One good thing about foam is that it's very adaptable to whatever you want to do. You can hardly make mistakes with it and any mistakes can be easily corrected by further trimming or gluing in a new piece of foam to start over.
wedudler
Very nice photo essay, Wolfgang. How did you get the ripples on the river?
Thanks for all of the answers. I will experiment using both foam and plywood as bottoms for water. It looks like having a foam bottom for a small creek would not be a problem and then going down to the plywood for a larger water area might be best.
I made the mistake of just painting the plywood and pouring the Environtex into my river. The wood grain showed through the paint. On my next layout, I used foam and cut the river into it before I glued it down. Then I shaped the river banks and bottom from Sculptamold and painted them before pouring the Environtex. I am very happy with it. However, on another layout, we just painted the foam and poured the liquid plastic [I don't remember the brand]. It melted the foam and sank to the plywood. Not a pretty sight.
I like to use Envirotex lite for water and that stuff is slipperier the snot so the key is sealing the what ever you use, plywood, pink foam, foamcore board. Thats basiclly what your doing with the sculptamold or plaster or anything else mentioned. Once any of those things dry hard they will hold water just fine. If your at all concerned seal the foam with any acrylic based sealer. I wuld say it's pretty much a given that it won't harm pink foam but just for ha ha's try a little on a scrap piece. There are some things pink foam just doesn't like, whihc I found out the hard way when a little bit of C/A hit my first pink foam project I was working on. It was one heck of a science experiment gone wrong thats for sure...........lol
The following photo shows part of a fairly large harbor which has commercial fishing boats and a 3 ft ore carrier, besides the swing bridge and smaller boats,(which are moved with monofilament line that is crank operated). The base is blue-green painted plywood covered with large sheet of random patterned office window plastic The rippled surface of the plastic appears quite realistic. One can paint the back surface of the plastic, instead of painting the plywood.
For cascading rivers in ravines, I cut the ravine shape in the reinforced 5/8inch plywood layout surface. After tacking on heavy wire screening, (covered with plaster cloth), I primed the surface and taped the ends of each drop in the cascading river. The river edges and bottom are then painted appropriately. I use Magic Water, applied to each section of the river. One can then apply Walthers Water effects to make realistic rushing water. Click on the photos to enlarge them, then click on the photos to the left, to see other views of my layout. Bob Hahn
A happy accident with my pink foam was that I had to laminate several layers since only the 1" was available (Gulf coast of TX). I had to have it cut at the store into 2x4 pieces to get it into my Mini and in a gluing frenzy one 2x4 section had the plastic film still attached. When I went to create my river bed, I carved slanted banks through the top piece and entire river bed lifted out in two slabs- leaving a perfectly flat bottom surface. Thankfully none of the other 2x4's had their plastic barriers still in place. I haven't gotten around to filling the river and now have some testing of a few different techniques to keep me busy.
Roy Onward into the fog http://s1014.photobucket.com/albums/af269/looseclu/
Here's an older in progress pic of the way I do it.There's31/2" of foam, cut out for the river, with a piece of plywood on the bottom. Then I slopped on some thinned drywall mud, painted the bottom and added logs, rocks,etc. I use Envirotex Lite, also.
This is the same area now:
Hope it helps.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
First of all: great work guys!
I'm thinking that a piece of hardboard or masonite (well sealed, of course) would be a suitable substitute for plywood if one were to use that as a base on top of foam scenery, or any other type of scenic base material used. Wouldn't it be easier to work with, since it's thin, easy to cut, and already smooth?
Anyone tried it?
Not having done any water myself yet, I'm always interested in different methods. I have the Woodland Scenics 2 part Realistic Water.
I've read that a flat bottom is most desirable to minimize the amount of resin needed and to control the evenness of each pour.
Very nice job turned out great very realistic looking. I am not a big fan of the totally flat looking layout but yours really look nice. By looking at the picks it seems to have a nice flow to it.
Thanks for the comments, Allegheny.
I model NW Wisconsin. It's pretty flat farmland/ rolling hills. The area I model is ex-CNW from Spooner to Eau Claire.The mainline actually climbs from 48" at the yard to 56" at the bridge pic. It looks flat but it really isn't
I
MisterBeasleywedudler Very nice photo essay, Wolfgang. How did you get the ripples on the river?
tedskiOne of the things I run across is the statement that a river and/or lake should be created on the plywood base of the layout, not dug out of the foam.
Just one of those silly urban legends that get passed about. You absolutely CAN dig into the foam. In fact it makes the water course look much more realistic. IMHO, water should have real depth so that rocks, fish, boats, swimmers etc can be fully or partly submerged, not sitting on top of the surface. This is why most of us no longer use mirrors for lakes . For a stream you should undercut the outside of curves and slope the insides. You can't add a culvert pipe exiting a painted stream either. Depth is up to you.
All, that being said, I have seen some absolutely beautiful painted water - just don't add a boat unless you sand off its bottom.
tedskiCan't this all just be done on the foam without having to dig down to the plywood base?
Of course.
Karl
The mind is like a parachute. It works better when it's open. www.stremy.net