Ok, I have read all the books on benchwork, I understand the difference between the Butt-joint and L-girder and the advantages and disadvantages. What I am looking for is some one who had been there and done that….
I just recently dismantled my 5 x 9 layout because I wasn’t very happy with it chasing its tail. The construction is two tables bolted together. A 4 x 5 & a 5 x 5. I am planning an around the room layout in a 11’ x 11’ room and am wondering what to do next. My thoughts were to split both tables to give me four tables 30” wide butt-joint and add a couple additional L-girder to fill the room. I am not impressed with the looks of the L-girder and am wondering how easy they are to move should the need arise.
Any ideas, suggestion or opinions would be appreciated.
If you can attach the layout to the walls, I'd suggest 1x2 frames with foam attached to the surface. I use a sandwich of 11/2" and 2" foam:
The sections look like this before I put them up:
Hope this helps!
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
I use sectional benchwork I "mass produced" 15 years ago. The original units are 2 1/2 x 6 feet and comstructed from 1x4 pine. The newer units are 2 x 4 feet and constructed from 3/4 inch plywood ripped 3 1/2" wide. While more labor, and material intensive then L girder, my sectional benchwork is movable, and easily set up by one person. My collection of units is currently supporting its fourth layout in its second home.
While not fine cabinetry by any means, my benchwork did require a certain amount of precision. Although, I used a fully equipped wood shop and a set of jigs, it is possible to execute using hand tools.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
I have always done the open grid which I think is what you mean by butt joint. This gives me more storage under the layout. I also think it's more portable.
L girder biggest selling features (at least to me) are ease of construction and easily having joists of different lengths and at different angles. Since I have a radial arm saw, ease of construction is not an issue for me. I haven't yet built a layout where the joists weren't the same length and angle so that's not an issue for me either.
I think either method will work fine as far as supporting the layout goes assuming you build them correctly. So I would go with the one that appeals to you for other reasons. And by all means mix them if that works best.
Enjoy
Paul
My layout, which is partially freestanding and partially attached to the walls (with shelf brackets) is built with steel stud material - far superior to wood in a high temperature, low humidity environment (garage, without climate control, in the Dessicated Desert.) Construction is L girder.
Tools used? Small rafter square, 25 foot tape measure, tin snips, cordless drill (for both drilling holes and driving screws) and a big flat file (used to dull sharp edges.) A variety of clamps is essential - I use those black plastic things that look like oversize clothespins. Assembly is mostly screws - those little capscrews designed for steel stud assembly. A few joints which might have to be separated in the future are bolted. As is normal for L-girder construction, all fasteners go in from below.
My tracklaying surface consists of cookie-cut plywood, a layer of extruded foam and a full size cardstock template, supported from the joists on risers made from the same steel stud material and fastened together with latex caulk. A little creative cutting and bending provides screwing flanges where the risers meet the plywood. The same mini-screws used to fasten the stud material to other stud material also work to anchor the plywood.
Since my woodworking skills are questionable, I have found the steel studs to be easy to deal with and adequate for the purpose. If you intend to stand or sit on your benchwork, well...
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Here are a couple of shots of some of my bench work that we did not build in place but rather out in my shop. Use premium quality lumber not cheap stuff you will regret using it just to save a few bucks trust me this is not the place to cheap out. I use 1x4 pine and a general rule of thumb is make your bench work no wider then 36" you should be able to reach the back of the bench work or the farthest section of track with in arms length. How ever this changes as you raise your bench work height. Mine is at 48" off the floor so it's a bit of a stretch but still ok. I like it 48" off the floor for several reason, A: you get a better view of the trains in my o/p they look more natural then looking down on them from above and B: I can sit on a chair and roll around under the becn work and SIT DOWN while I wire, it might not seem like that big of a deal but trust me you knee's and back will thank you. I used 1x4 risers and spline subroadbed with homasote roadbed I do not recommend this method unless you are building a large layout and are looking to cut down the cost.
I fastened the bech work to the wall via a ledger board, I put my back drop scenery on masonite mounted to firring strips attached to the wall. I aslo coved all the inside corners so as not to see the right angels of the corners. DO THIS FIRST you do not want to be bending over bench work to do back drop scenery trust me been there done that way too many times years a go. All my bench work is screwed and glued together and each section is butted together and bolted to each other using 3/8" carriage bolts. I also used 2x4 legs on my bench work trust me strength and stability will go unnoticed for many many years to come but build it weak and flimsey and it will haunt you every single day of your life.
The bench work I'm about to explain was born for strength, and cheap. I used construction grade for 2"X4" and had to look over many pieces before I found some almost knotless and not warped. I built two table tops 8 feet long with only one cross brace in the center, and over that put 3/4" plywood. I built two of those, one 24" above the other, And the top one had no leg in the center, nor did the bottom one. No sag it 2.5 years. I screwed the plywood on every six inches, Making it a very strong "L" girder. The upper and lower tables were connected with a 24"radius spiral, cheap benchwork, except, the expensive 3/4" plywood. There are somtimes it's no time to compromise. I used 2.5" wood screws, torq head screws of course and an adjustable speed battery drill.
George
Thanks guys for the ideas.
My plans were to cut both tables in half and add a 2x2 to the "L" shaped legs to raise the table to 45". The legs have held up well with no cross bracing. They are a little over kill for such small tables but I was afraid that 2x2 would be to small. What about replacing the legs with 2 x 4's. Would they require cross bracing?
Sorry about all the questions but I want to get it right. Starting over isnt' much fun so I want to make sure I have it right this time.
I still dont' have a concrete plan for the room but felt I need to get started with the tables so I will have a better idea of what will fit.
MC
Wow, nice bench work, nice car and seems like I have seen the saw horses before. I put 2x6's on the top of mine.
In the 'L'shape part what is the distance to the wall? Can you reach over it ok at 48" above the floor. I have mine at 45" and am worried about the reach to the corners.
Tell
Not sure what happened there. I wanted to ask you about the car but my computer decided that I was ready to post. Is it a 55?
1x4 pine or the ply cut up, you choice ply is more exact, pine boards take screws and such better. Top it with foam, some like thin ply, then foam. Make your modules 2'x4' or any other choice (that was mine), then bolt them together to make your final shape layout. Easiest track layout is a single or double down the mainline in the exact middle (great if you have to move to a different shape space). Mine is 3" centered from both sides so that I have twice the running length without going spaghetti.
C & O SteamWow, nice bench work, nice car and seems like I have seen the saw horses before. I put 2x6's on the top of mine. In the 'L'shape part what is the distance to the wall? Can you reach over it ok at 48" above the floor. I have mine at 45" and am worried about the reach to the corners. Tell
I'm not going to lie it is a bit of a stretch but I have a topside creeper that makes it very easy to reach. You can buy one from Micro Mark but I used to work on trucks and paid about half what they want for theirs. In the corner it's coved from the corner of the bench work to the coved corner of the room it's 52" but the farthest section of track the upper part it's 32" and easy to reach using the TSC. The saw horses are a necessity when your installing your bench work alone like I did. I shot the walls with a laser level while installing the 2x4 ledger board so when I put the bench work in place I just screwed it to the ledger board. I was criticized by one of my friends saying the ledger board took away too much space. Even I can live with the loss of the width of a 2x4 and not loose sleep over it. This layout was built in the shop and now resides in the basement. eventually anew large layout will be built in the 30'x60' extension that will be built onto the back of the shop, I'm just waiting for my bailout check to come through from Washington should be any day now unless they ran out of ink.
C & O SteamThanks guys for the ideas. My plans were to cut both tables in half and add a 2x2 to the "L" shaped legs to raise the table to 45". The legs have held up well with no cross bracing. They are a little over kill for such small tables but I was afraid that 2x2 would be to small. What about replacing the legs with 2 x 4's. Would they require cross bracing?
The size of the leg has nothing to do with the need for cross bracing. Height of the layout and method of fastening the legs does. Wood is pretty strong in compression - which legs inherently are. So 2x2 is plenty beefy for legs. And you gain nothing by going to 2x4s.
But since you are raising the layout height (I totally agree with at least 45" and would be tempted to go to 48" or higher in your shoes), cross bracing of legs does become much more critical. Without the bracing, the legs and layout will "rack" where they attach to the layout as pressure is applied (like leaning against the layout). Triangular (diagonal) bracing is stronger than rectangular as it cannot "rack" into a parallelogram.
If you get it right on the second try, you'll be way ahead of me. To me, change is an inherent part of the life of a layout, and a part of the journey of model railroading. Since we ourselves are continually changing, it seems unreasonable that a 10 year old layout without any changes is exactly what we want today. Sometimes change results in small modifications, and sometimes it means ripping it out and starting over. My goal is to avoid reaching the start-over point for at least 3 years with some decent introspection and planning.
In my case I'm building a small test layout (48"x72") to use as a test track and portable, full size mock up for some ideas for my 7.5 x 10ft space. With the test layout, I will be able to test 24" aisle size and 60" rail height for practicality, test utilizing under the layout for desk, work bench, and computer station, as well as test running and breaking in my locomotives. It will also serve as a test of stacked and carved foam scenery.
There are several schools of thought regarding the design process.
The 1st insists you should plan the track arrangement first, and let that guide the benchwork. This approach generally results in a more creative track arrangement and use of the space.
Benchwork first limits your track arrangement possibilities, but is usually more amenable to changes once construction starts. After all, if you have custom built curves into the benchwork at a particular place to accommodate a specific feature, it becomes more difficult to move things around. Some will just build their benchwork and figure out actual track arrangement afterwards. The problem is that you will have built in many constraints on the track arrangment that didn't have to be there had you planned the track in advance.
Track planning software is one method to try out various track arrangements before committing to actual construction. But planning full size on the benchwork is not a bad option, either. I've certainly done some of both methods.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
One frustration I have with wooden benchwork is that too often a girder or riser interferes with the installation of below-track switch machines for turnouts. It is a pain to relocate girders/risers when location of a turnout can't be readily altered.
Next time I'm planning to build much of the benchwork initially with few girders, particularly in areas with a high concentration of turnouts, installing more girders and any risers after I've constructed the plywood subroadbed and accurately located the turnouts.
Mark
fwright Benchwork first limits your track arrangement possibilities, but is usually more amenable to changes once construction starts. After all, if you have custom built curves into the benchwork at a particular place to accommodate a specific feature, it becomes more difficult to move things around. Some will just build their benchwork and figure out actual track arrangement afterwards. The problem is that you will have built in many constraints on the track arrangment that didn't have to be there had you planned the track in advance.
I agree with Fred's statement completely. I will admit, however, of substantially revising the track locations and schematics two different times on the same 5-by-10-foot-donut-shaped-layout-with-a- 2-by-5-operating-pit benchwork, thus experiencing three different layouts on the same benchwork. Successfully.
Thanks guys for all the great ideas.
I completed a couple of 5' x 30" tables yesterday except for the legs. I wanted to see how to arange them in my room. I started a 6' x 24" for the side wall but some how my radial saw is no longer cutting straight. Will need to make some adjustment before I can finish everything.
I agree with you on the layout plan before the bench work but I wanted to see how I could fit things in my 11' x 11' room and what height would be accessable. I will probably put the two 5' tables on the back wall, the six foot table will go on the left wall. My current 4' x 5' will be split to complete the room,
I am having trouble determing what type of layout I want so I thought if I had the bench work completed then I might have a better idea of how things could be placed. This is probably my first mistake.....
I would like to have two main lines but am also considering a twice around. Any ideas on what type of layout would best fit in a 11' x 11' room?
C & O Steam,
I have posted this plan earlier in this forum. This track plan idea should come close to what you want to have, but finally you have to develop something out of your own givens and druthers. After all, you want to have your own layout and not somebody else´s - right?
Here it is!
Using SirMaddog,s plan as a guide, you may also consider a peninsula into the middle of the room. The plan showed is in a 9x11 you have 2 addition feet to work with.
If you are content w/ track and most scenery basically level, the boxed framed sections will work well for your purposes. I like "L" girder only for the advantages it poses for various track and scenery elevations. Your sectional framework can also accomadate these characteristics as open frame (even some frame modification) to use risers for track, bridge abutments etc.and elevated placement of plywood bases for buildings/ towns,
Radical elevation changes are much more difficult to accomplish when that benchwork is flat decked and ply/ foam covered. Just some suggestions.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Ulrich,
Thanks....I had noticed your plan from a previous post. I printed it to use as a referrence, hope you don't mind. Are you using Anyrail S/W? If I expand this to 11' X 11' can I extend the curves to a larger radious? ( 28" or 30")
MC,
unfortunately I am not using AnyRail, but an old version of WinRail, which is known as RTS if restricted to Atlas track. You could easily enlarge the radii of the curves if you have a little more space available.
i prepared this plan on the basis of a layout MR published some time ago. I intended to build it in my train room, only to find out that it would not fit in due to door and windo placement and a sloping ceiling . I tried not to "stack-up" too much track.
I guess it is a workable plan for 1 or 2 operators.
C & O Steam Thanks....I had noticed your plan from a previous post. I printed it to use as a referrence, hope you don't mind. Are you using Anyrail S/W? If I expand this to 11' X 11' can I extend the curves to a larger radious? ( 28" or 30")
As noted in the other thread, this is a copy of Jerry Boudreaux's Red Rock Northern from MR June 2007, which has a number of flaws, both in the original and the copy. See the other thread for a link to a past discussion.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
fwrightAnd you gain nothing by going to 2x4s.
The legs of my layout are 2 X 4 cut to 45" length. Yes, it is overkill, I could probably park my car on it, but the day I went to the lumber store 2 X 4 were on sale. Price is important...
My layout is in a spare room, so my benchwork is not attached to the wall. I think if I had a basement I would not attach any thing to the walls.
Bob
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rclanger fwrightAnd you gain nothing by going to 2x4s. The legs of my layout are 2 X 4 cut to 45" length. Yes, it is overkill, I could probably park my car on it, but the day I went to the lumber store 2 X 4 were on sale. Price is important... My layout is in a spare room, so my benchwork is not attached to the wall. I think if I had a basement I would not attach any thing to the walls.
2x4s are way overkill as mentioned by Fred W. Rip them to 2x2s and double your savings. 1xs and 2x2s are much easier to work with and will look so much better.
Even though you may not "really" attach the benchwork to the walls, a few strategically placed drywall screws can really help secure the layout. You don't need to anchor as if a ledger, just every other wall stud should suffice. This will add sheer and stop a considerable amount of wrack that otherwise will require leg bracing.
Thanks for all the ideas. I have three tables assembled so far. Two 5' x 30" and one 5' x 24". I am using 2x4's for the 30" and 2 x 2's for the 24". I cut the legs to 48" and was happy with the space under the table but decided that the second level if added may be to high. I changed them to 45" but am now wondering if that was a smart thing to do. Do you think maybe I can put the pieces back on with duck tape? Will that hold up? Just kidding..........
After doing some reading on the web this morning I have decided to hold off building any more tables and maybe painting the room blue and also painting the tables before they are assembled.. Always something to keep me from getting my trains back to running.
I agree with everyone that I should have my layout complete before the tables are complete but I need to see what room I will have before I can put a plan together.
Thanks again for all the suggestions.
markpierce One frustration I have with wooden benchwork is that too often a girder or riser interferes with the installation of below-track switch machines for turnouts. It is a pain to relocate girders/risers when location of a turnout can't be readily altered. Next time I'm planning to build much of the benchwork initially with few girders, particularly in areas with a high concentration of turnouts, installing more girders and any risers after I've constructed the plywood subroadbed and accurately located the turnouts.
Mark,
Might I suggest that when the "next time" rolls around, that you...
This should minimise any need to relocate girders or turn-outs.
Also, keep in mind the location of any existing girders should you change/alter/tweek your plans (as we are all prone to doing) after the benchwork has been built. Moving a girder or changing a turnout's location before putting down the deck or laying track, is far easier.
chateauricher Mark, Might I suggest that when the "next time" rolls around, that you... do scale drawings of your track plans. use the drawings with some tracing paper on top, then determine where to put the girders so as to avoid interferance with any Tortoises and other under-track installations (eg: feeder wires). remember the dimensions of the girders and the under-track installations so that you leave adequate clearance. Tortoises and some other under-track switch-machines have moving parts that need room to operate without getting hung up on something. I'd leave at least 1" clearance on all 4 sides. This should minimise any need to relocate girders or turn-outs. Also, keep in mind the location of any existing girders should you change/alter/tweek your plans (as we are all prone to doing) after the benchwork has been built. Moving a girder or changing a turnout's location before putting down the deck or laying track, is far easier.
Thanks, Timothy, but I'm aware of all this. Unfortunately, I don't live in a perfect world and find that actual track locations will vary from a scale plan.