Hello guys. I'm into MR for a long time, but only had a few small layouts, and mostly I liked the trains go around with lots of scenery. I'm an architect and I'm building this layout for public exhibition. It is a freelanced version of the ATSF and BN before the merger somewhere in Missouri. Minimum mainline radius is 42" and 34" for yard and spurs. Minimum No.8 turnouts for mainline and No.6 for yard and spurs. It also have a max. 2.5% grade. The design consist of two concentric loops servicing as mainlines, two yards, two big industries (an ethanol plant and a limestone query, or coal mine, still deciding) and a few minor industries complementary to these two (grain elevators, mills, cement plant, power plant, etc...) and a port ( for exporting the products, container operation, etc...). Everything is running DCC including the turnouts (turtle+SD). The double loop design is for the trains to be able to run without much operating for everyday exhibits, but the layout have enough sidings to run several trains and provide good operations when needed (or wanted). A gypsumboard backdrop will divide the layout, eliminating the "loop" view.
The thing is I have no idea about signaling. If anyone could help here. Here is the track plan, perhaps locating what and where I should place signals like semaphores, signal bridges, block signals, etc... Budget is broad (for now). Right now, signaling may be inoperant, but I would like a realistic look to the railroad, and eventuly upgrading to operational signaling.
The building construction starts soon, so I need this info ASAP. I would greatly appreciate your help in this one. Also, any critics or sugestion to the track plan is also very welcome, I can still change it for better.
First off, that's a great looking trackplan you have there. I take it that you want the signalling to be prototypically correct? If so, it would be difficult to get you up to speed in a thread like this, but there is a very good book on the market that describes prototype signal practices. It is titled Railroad Signaling by Brian Soloman and is available from all the usual online retailers and I have found it at a few book stores. Both Amazon and Google have good sample pages from the book on their websites:
http://www.amazon.com/Railroad-Signaling-Brian-Soloman/dp/0760313601http://books.google.com/books?id=TISRZNN0sCMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=railroad+signaling&ei=By13SYKVNoH4lQSM0b3XBg
There are also a few very good websites that describe signaling practices and should provide all of the base information you would want to know. Here are a few that I reference on a regular basis:
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_st_sp/p_index.htmlhttp://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_apb/index.htmlhttp://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_atsf_flatpair/p_index.html
Jamie
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I thought at first the image siezed my computer, but I now see it is just a screen capture. . I'm having a hard time making out everything as it comes up somewhat small. You state you have 42"r curves on the main, so I'm taking a stab at the overall size of this layout being in the 30'x 45'ish range? I can make out a couple things that may/may not be an issue. The trackage for what I'm assuming is the major industries switchback, but there is no means for a loco to do a runaround on the cars which will limit what you can do at that site. Don't forget to throw in some of the other stuff that will be needed in the end, like street/roads, parking, truck loading docks, etc. It may open up more ideas that you weren't seeing before.
I'm not sure if it's still in print, but if you can find a copy of "How to Operate Your Model Railroad" by Bruce Chubb, it has a good chapter that has both a good overview of real signalling, and suggestions for adapting real practice to modelling.
RedLeaderand a port ( for exporting the products, container operation, etc...).
There wouldn't be a container port in Missouri. Mississippi, yes, Missouri, no. The most you would have in Missouri would be a rail to barge transfer of bulk commodities (coal, grain, rock).
RedLeader The thing is I have no idea about signaling. If anyone could help here. Here is the track plan, perhaps locating what and where I should place signals like semaphores, signal bridges, block signals, etc... Budget is broad (for now). Right now, signaling may be inoperant, but I would like a realistic look to the railroad, and eventuly upgrading to operational signaling.
No semaphores, color lights only. At major locations wher you have switching out of yards, junctions or crossover you would have control points (CP) that would have a signal on each track at the entrance to the CP. If there was a way for the train to change from one track to another, the signal would have two heads. If there wasn't a way to change tracks the signal would have one head. Divide the distance between CP's into roughly one train length segments. At that spacing put intermediate signals with one head for each track for each direction. Do not put any signals in yards or in industry tracks.
That will pretty well simulate CTC. If the section of track beyond the next signal is occupied or a switch is lined against the train's movement the signal will be stop (red). If there is one open section of track beyond the next signal, the signal will be approach (yellow). If the next 2 section of track are open the signal will be clear (green) At a CP if the train is lined through a normal route, the entering signal will have the 'active' (green-yellow-red) head on top of a red head. If the train is lined to change tracks the 'active' head will be below a read head. So if you have a clear signal and the train is lined down the main at a CP, the signal will be green over red, if you are lined through the crossover, the signal will be red over green.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman That will pretty well simulate CTC.
That will pretty well simulate CTC.
My understanding is that under CTC, a red signal (unless it is an intermediate ABS signal) won't turn to another color unless the dispatcher changes it.
Mark
markpierce dehusman That will pretty well simulate CTC. My understanding is that under CTC, a red signal (unless it is an intermediate ABS signal) won't turn to another color unless the dispatcher changes it. Mark
Yes I believe that is correct for an absolute signal protecting a control point, which I think is pretty much what was stated above. When a train inters the CP the cleared signal gets "knocked down" or goes red (absolute stop). Of course, the dispatcher could have previously stacked one or more additional routes through the CP, which means even though the signal goes red, it will automatically go yellow then green as the train clears the route ahead. Of course, the dispatcher technically did make the change, just in advance of the actual signals changing. Also realize this is a higly generalized discussion and there are a lot of details not being talked about. Jamie
CSX, thanks a lot for the sugested title. Tinman, I would take into recomendation your sugestion, perhaps a reversing loop or a couple of more practical turntables will do the trick. Dehusman, thanks a lot for your help. You are totaly right about the geographical error, I'll start investigating Mississippi, both states I know personaly. I've considered Colorado also, but I'm guessing no ports there. The thing is that a great deal of engines and some rolling stock that are being donated are ATSF and BN. Your explanation for signaling is critical and you've given me a lot of light there, which I greatly apreciate... thanks. As soon as the plan is udated I'll post it, along with the "Station" (the building that will house the layout) final plans for your opinion.
tinman1 .... I can make out a couple things that may/may not be an issue. The trackage for what I'm assuming is the major industries switchback, but there is no means for a loco to do a runaround on the cars which will limit what you can do at that site.....
.... I can make out a couple things that may/may not be an issue. The trackage for what I'm assuming is the major industries switchback, but there is no means for a loco to do a runaround on the cars which will limit what you can do at that site.....
Here is some more unsolicited advice about your extensive use of switchbacks on industrial spurs...DON'T. Layout designer Byron Henderson (who has recently posted sound advice on other threads on this forum) has a very cogent treatise about those darn switchbacks. I won't repeat his thoughts here but click on this to read Byron's:
http://www.layoutvision.com/id16.html
I have additional thoughts on switchbacks, but that's best done on a thread of my making. They are used in industrial settings, but usually under special circumstances that don't apply to most all layout plans employing them.
Good point, switchbacks like that are very common on model railroads, but quite rare on the prototype. I heard a working railroader (who was also a model railroader) say that the only place he could recall a switchback was a spot where there were a couple of spurs off a double ended siding where the switch at one end of the siding was removed creating a switchback.
wjstix Good point, switchbacks like that are very common on model railroads, but quite rare on the prototype. I heard a working railroader (who was also a model railroader) say that the only place he could recall a switchback was a spot where there were a couple of spurs off a double ended siding where the switch at one end of the siding was removed creating a switchback.
Rare but not unheard of; there are a few I know of in my immediate area including one that I am modeling on my layout. So while I would agree they are overused & abused in model railroading, I would not agree that they should be eliminated completely especially if a specific prototype example is being modelled or modified. Jamie