Don't get me wrong, but what I think is, or should be if you are to enjoy your construction, irrelevant. You could even have wooden ties, if that is what you are thinking. Canadian railroads still use them. Some railroads use concrete.
There are many fellas here who have hand laid track. I don't think they regret the experience, and some probably wish they could still do it and not have a fit or end up frustrated. The reasons are many, and only apply to the extent that they are real limitations for them. On the other hand, if you are young, have a strong steady hand, enjoy finework, have good eyes, and are a patient and methodical person, you should have a blast....why wouldn't you?
I do understand that it is time-consuming...maybe that's exactly what you would need is some relaxing time doing a bit here and there over time. If you find you've had a belly full after a while, you can always resort to flextrack in unseen areas to speed things along.
The model railway should be your oyster!
Interesting. I'm not sure what it is you are asking. If you don't like the plastic ties of ready made, and you do like the pre weathered rail of handlaid, and it's your model railroad, then what is the issue? Handlay the track.
Now, if you are asking about what is "modern" track all about and how to go about modeling it accurately, then maybe I can help. BUT I will have to know a little more about your particular railroad. Are you going full proto? If that's the case then use what the proto uses in the region you are modeling. If you are going free lance, it's a bit more difficult. I'll explain.
Prototype track can be up to 70 years old in places. I often see rails date stamped sometime in the 1930's. Short lines and many Class I yards use old 39ft jointed rail and crappy wood ties. A Class I freight mainline that has recently been updated has regular, even and uniform color (black) wood ties that are a tad bit larger than the older ones, and uniform welded rail. Or Class I may have concrete ties, Amtrak uses concrete extensively. Modern track of both types have all kinds of gizmos for signal systems, train detection and automatic greasers. It goes without saying that there are exceptions to every application....
Track is the vital life blood of a railroad, without it you have no rail road- hence the deceptively clever name "rail" and "road". Some is old, some new, some both in the same place. Some is wood, some is concrete. Only you can decide what is right for your particular application. The process to handlay is the same regardless of what you choose, just the materials would be different. It never ceases to amaze me that track is the least accurately modeled part of any model railroad-but the most visible. Little effort is made for track prototype accuracy on most layouts, I wonder if railroad modelers even know there is a difference between what Atlas makes and what the prototype uses?
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
As with any other aspect of model construction, there are levels of realism and corresponding levels of difficulty in hand-laying track. I have done it before, both the pre-flex-track, 'spike every fifth tie,' and four spikes per tie with rail braces and filed notches in the railhead at every prototype rail joint. I will NOT do it again (except for specialwork.)
My personal preference is to use appropriate flex track (such as Atlas Code 100 in hidden places where the low price makes up for the appearance which no one will ever see) and hand-lay my specialwork. IMHO, the least realistic appearing and most trouble-prone part of any tracklaying project is specialwork. When I lay my own, I can be confident that the end result will be properly gauged, properly powered and able to handle even derailment-prone rolling stock without a hiccup.
Hand-laying track is like customizing a car - it's flashy, and different, but is it really worth the effort? The only person who can answer that question for you is walking around in your shoes.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - on flex track with hand-laid specialwork)
selector wrote:There are many fellas here who have hand laid track. I don't think they regret the experience...
Gotcha, Mark. What a marvellous and interesting hobby we have where some folks yearn for brass locomotives, while those who have them yearn for the better running plastic models, maybe even with DCC and sound. I wouldn't mind trying handlaying track at all, but I fear I would end up as you have...feeling like it didn't measure up when it was all said and done.
I have heard of Proto 87, and it intrigues me. I guess if I continue to strive for improvement in my photography for the foreseeable future, it might be a wise move for me to purchase some of it and see what it is like. As much as I gritted my teeth and learned the Fast Tracks method of building turnouts, I suspect that the Proto 87 devices are very good to excellent, and many times better detailed.
To the OP, Chuck (tomikawaTT above) has done enough handlaying that he would undoubtedly encourage you to try your hand, but to recognize when you "were done" with it. It should be a pleasant challenge, not a millstone. Maybe you could get by, initially, with only the closest tracks, or those likely to be imaged, done by hand. Whatever you decide you must do, I hope you end up enjoying it all.
-Crandell
Handlaying isn't difficult. Constructing turnouts, crossings, and other special trackwork is where the difficulty lies. But one can purchase off-the-shelf turnout kits, order custom-made trackwork, or obtain/make jigs to make it easier. It takes more time than flextrack and associated mass-produced turnouts, but with a bit of diligence and liberal use of accurate three-point track gauges (and that trusty NMRA gage thingy), you'll obtain much more reliable trackwork. What's the rush?
Mark Pierce
marknewton wrote: selector wrote:There are many fellas here who have hand laid track. I don't think they regret the experience...Crandell, I'm probably in the minority, but I do regret handlaying the track on my last layout. It performed well enough, but its appearance was a disappointment, as it lacked the spike head and baseplate detail of commercial track. Even though I added guard rails and rail braces on curves - it's a Japanese thing - the track still looked unfinished in my eyes. If I were to do it again, I'd use the Proto 87 range of parts for a better appearance.
If one wants the tie detail, use Central Valley's tie strips. CV has them for regular ties as well as for certain turnouts. Of course, one can always go to Proto too. Regardless, I'm getting to the age it is hard to discern the extra detail.
Mark
What really destroys the appearance of trackwork are visible switch machines and large-scale manual switches on the layout to control turnouts. (I chuckle to myself when people are dizzy with glee with flextrack sporting tie plates and spikes yet somehow ignore their use of giant-sized turnout controls such as produced by Caboose Industries.) On the other hand, painting/weathering the rails and ties does wonders for appearance. In my book, that's much more important than spike and tieplate detail.
Thanks everybody for your responses. You have given me some things to consider along with other options!
selector wrote: if you are young, have a strong steady hand, enjoy finework, have good eyes, and are a patient and methodical person, you should have a blast....why wouldn't you?
if you are young, have a strong steady hand, enjoy finework, have good eyes, and are a patient and methodical person, you should have a blast....why wouldn't you?
Thanks selector, I was considering trying my hand (pun intended) on this myself - until you clearly defined why I shouldn't!
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
Handlaying track is a patience thing--and my quantity of that item can expend itself quite rapidly which is why I don't do it. I acquired some experience handlaying HO-Scale track on a couple of club layouts but both of those were using TRU-SCALE roadbed which is a mite different than spiking track down on handlaid ties. I tried handlaying HO-Scale track one time and gave it up; Churchhill once quipped that "Second marriages is a victory of hope over experience!" so tell me what measure of idiocy compelled me to try handlaying N-Scale Code 55 early in my N-Scale career. I very quickly ran out of patience with that effort and repaired to using RailCraft flex.
Like marknewton I don't really find the appearance of handlaid track that inspiring! Since I joined this hobby 40 plus years ago technological improvements has refined the quality of flexible track; my big question in this regard always becomes: is there such an improvement in the imagery of handlaid track over quality flex track to warrant the expenditure of time.
If handlaying track is your "bag" then you have my unbounded admiration but then I must admit that you have considerably more patience than I have.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Scarpia wrote: selector wrote: if you are young, have a strong steady hand, enjoy finework, have good eyes, and are a patient and methodical person, you should have a blast....why wouldn't you? Thanks selector, I was considering trying my hand (pun intended) on this myself - until you clearly defined why I shouldn't!
Actually, my experience is that traditional handlaid track requires less hand precision and courage than many other modeling activities - drilling and mounting grab irons, airbrushing a prize locomotive, straightening a side rod on a steamer, adjusting gear mesh in a drive train, etc. Handlaid track, for those of us who are not brain surgeons, does require a fair amount of patience. I have to be willing to (in the worst case) rip up the turnout and start over - but I've yet to have to do that.
Try laying a spur and see how you feel about handlaid track. Then you'll know if you have the patience and temperment to move on to curved track and turnouts.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
markpierce wrote: the tie detail, use Central Valley's tie strips. CV has them for regular ties as well as for certain turnouts. Of course, one can always go to Proto too. Regardless, I'm getting to the age it is hard to discern the extra detail.Mark
the tie detail, use Central Valley's tie strips. CV has them for regular ties as well as for certain turnouts. Of course, one can always go to Proto too. Regardless, I'm getting to the age it is hard to discern the extra detail.
This guy knows whats up. With the CV tie-strips, it just becomes essentially handlaid flextrack. Everything except gluing or spiking the rail down is done for you already. They automatically guage the rails, they have awesome spike/tie-plate detail, can be connected together to link as many strips as you want, are available in different tie-spacings for mainline or branch, are very, very cheap, and... well... handlaid track doesn't get any easier.
I don't know what would be involved, but cutting up a section of flex to extract the rails, cutting some wooden ties from stripwood, and then trying to hand lay maybe two feet of track with some pliers and some tiny track spikes could all be achieved in about two hours I should think. If it goes surprisingly, and pleasantly, well............what the heck?
Again, I haven't done it myself, just tried to understand what others say from reading between the lines. It can be done, and very well, but you have to be a determined personality, and have it as a defined objective. I think I'd run out of gas before too long. I've always said I build layouts so that I can play trains. Constructing them isn't my main goal or passion, so I can live with commercial products.
To expand on what Crandell said, I have obtained damaged flex (at yard sales, and cheap at a LHS) and used it as a source for rail for hand-laying turnouts and other specialwork up to and including multiple slip switches. If some of the tie strip is undamaged, the rails can be slid so the tie strip is available for the 'plain Jane' track leading into the specialwork. With additional care, it can also be used for those places in the puzzle palace where standard-length ties would be appropriate. I build my specialwork as a flowing part of the overall tracklaying process, not as something to be inserted as separate units - one full-length rail might start at the sharp end of a frog and play stock rail to three sets of points before finally curving away at the last turnout. I only place gaps where they are needed for electrical/control purposes, and generally try to avoid rail joints between short lengths of rail.
One trick, with both hand laid and flex track, is to slide the rail in the tie strip so that joints don't fall opposite one another (or position your hand-laid rail lengths in a similar manner.) Doing that greatly reduces the possibility of inadvertently kinking the track at joints.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
markpierce wrote:If one wants the tie detail, use Central Valley's tie strips. CV has them for regular ties as well as for certain turnouts. Of course, one can always go to Proto too. Regardless, I'm getting to the age it is hard to discern the extra detail.
Hi!
Handlaying track is a difficult, time-consuming, and exacting task. For those that have done it and succeeded, my hat is off to them!!! There are all kinds of shortcuts and advice out there to make the process easier and the end result more realistic, so expert help is available.
However, IMHO, handlaid track is more suitable for narrow gauge, pre-1940s layouts, and "not so prosperous" short lines. For the larger, main line railroads - especially those post 1960 - I would recommend that you use one of the many brands of flextrack that is available today. It will save you a lot of time and effort, and you can always shorten up a tie here and there, apply a wash to the ties and/or track sides, and the end result will be terrific!
Hey, whichever way you go, I wish you the best!!!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
i have to respectfully disagree with you here dude. Handlaying can go very fast. Sure, its not like gluing down flextrack, but this past weekend I did about.... oh... probably 12 feet worth of track in an hour. Its really not that hard. It is a 2-step process, though, if you're going with wooden ties, because they need to be in place before you lay the rail.
but seriously... with the use of an NMRA guage (which you should use anyway with flextrack) and 3-point track guages, its a breeze, and I find it very enjoyable. Inserting spikes into the ties, and then pushing them down into the homasote or basswood is not hard at all.
but i guess its what you enjoy doing. Like, I enjoy the construction aspect. Handlaying is the end in itself, not the means to an end. Yeah, i mean it takes a while when you start just to find your spiking technique, etc, but yeah... i mean, I just think that everyone should try it at least once, because its worth all the effort, in my opinion, besides the fact that you can go "Look! iiiii put that there! iiiii spiked that rail down myself!"
i donno... the feeling of accomplishment is totally awesome.
edit: Oh, i just thought of something: I think handlaying might be FASTER than using Micro Engineering flextrack, in terms of starting from scratch. With the ME flex, you need to take the time to form the curves beforehand, make sure they're smooth and correct, move the ties back into position that have moved while curving the track, getting the pieces all connected together, getting the railjoiners on... etc. I just know that its taken me longer to lay the few pieces of ME flex i have up right now than its been to handlay the same amount of rail on the NEB&W.
Handlaying track isn't all that difficult and I find it fun and rewarding.
Give it a try.
If you're more of the I-want-to-run-trains-right-now type, then you probably won't enjoy it, because it does take a little time; you can't just slap it down like flextrack.
mobilman44 wrote: Handlaying track is a difficult, time-consuming, and exacting task.
Not really. If it were that much trouble no one, including me, would bother to do it.
Midnight Railroader wrote: Handlaying track isn't all that difficult and I find it fun and rewarding. Give it a try. If you're more of the I-want-to-run-trains-right-now type, then you probably won't enjoy it, because it does take a little time; you can't just slap it down like flextrack. mobilman44 wrote: Handlaying track is a difficult, time-consuming, and exacting task. Not really. If it were that much trouble no one, including me, would bother to do it.
I agree with the basic idea, with this addition - if you just slap down flex track (instead of taking the slightly longer time to lay it carefully) your trains will probably spend as much time on the ties as they do on the rails.
Quick and dirty hand-laid rail on wood ties track is fast and easy. Handlaying AREA-standard track (tie plates, four or more spikes per tie, anticreepers, rail bonds...) can be difficult, time-consuming and exacting. Handlaid concrete-tie track is the improbable dream. (NOTHING is impossible, but some things are more preposterous than others. BTW, does anyone manufacture HOj scale Pandrol clips?)
So, I'll stick with flex for 'plain Jane' track, and keep on handlaying my specialwork. That's what works for me.
tomikawaTTSo, I'll stick with flex for 'plain Jane' track, and keep on handlaying my specialwork. That's what works for me.Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
That is what I was thinking of doing, Only I was going to handlay all of the tracks in one of my yards also. Which is not that much maybe somewhere around 25ft of track total, but still enough to get a great handlaying exercise out of it, and who knows, if I enjoy it, I may handlay all of my track.
have you seen fast tracks thats the only way to go for handlaying thay make jigs for turn outs and laser cut ties i have a #4 and #6 jig www.handlaidtrack.com
With all due respect, the FasTracks jigs are a good way to get the equivalent of commercial fixed-frog-# turnouts. They are not, by any stretch, "The only way to fly."
I learned to hand-lay specialwork decades before there was such a thing as a FasTracks jig. My own method has allowed me to design and build three way switches on curves (all branches curved the same way) and flowing puzzle palaces of specialwork with frogs of indeterminate, non-whole-number, sizes.
FasTracks jigs are a good way for the novice to get started. For the more experienced, they are more like a straitjacket. An NMRA gauge and a couple of three-point gauges will yield equally accurate results.
I agree with Chuck. The whole point of handlaying specialwork is that you're not limited to a specific frog number or turnout geometry. Each turnout can be tailored to suit its location.
I can't help but feel that FasTracks is a bit of a "flavour of the month" product. I can see where they'd be useful to those who lack experience, but as Chuck says, they're not the only way to handlay track.
Cheers,
Mark.
While some of the FastTracks tools might be handy--like the point form tool, for example--the jigs defeat the purpose of handlaying turnouts, in a way. If you build your turnouts with a jig, you may as well just buy them off the shelf, because they aren't customized to your layout's specific needs. In other words, you must make your trackplan fit their "stock" design.
I started out building turnouts on the bench before I realized they'd be a lot more effective if built in place. Using an techniques from an old Jack Work MR article and a newer Tony Koester MR article, I'm building them right on the layout now.