To stage or not to stage, that is the question

[Anonymous]

I'll admit I don't know much about staging and it's purpose, that's why I turn to you good folks who know better than I, and can give me the benefits of your wisdom, experiences, and mistakes.
I'm currently hard at work trying to design my freelanced HO scale RR empire down in the basement using 3d Railroad Concept & Design. There will be two major cities (or major rail yards) on two different levels with a few small towns in between. The plan is to have the major cities supply the small towns as well as move commerce between the two of them. There would be mostly two main lines (sometimes going down to one for operational interest), there would also be secondary lines to feed industry so that I have reasons to move loads from one place to another. I keep reading about Staging areas and how important it is to have these on a layout, if I understand this correctly, it is to simulate transportation between cities and different RRs. If I plan to use these two cities for movement of my rolling stock, is it really necessary to have a staging area? I thought I might put this staging area as a third tier since it does not require scenery and the like and is for parking trains to simulate the time it takes to get from one place to another.
Your input would be greatly appreciated.

[trainfan1221]

The idea of staging yards is supposedly to have trains ready on each end of your railroad. They represent incoming traffic from other railroads or unmodeled portions of your own. This is the theory for a point to point layout, which many of us I`m sure just don`t have. I use a long stretch on the back of my layout as staging. It is a good way to just have things ready to go. In my case, it also adds switching interest.

[Anonymous]

I plan to use a Walther's Barge and a Tugboat to stimulate some really large industries that take up too much space such as "Steel Mill, Aluminum Mill, Oil Refinery etc" as well as stimulated inbound ship traffic to a general cargo dock.

I hope to use these two to stage rolling stock onto and off the Diorama (Not Module) It is a rather small way of staging, but 20 cars make a staging yard. When these two componets are in place, they become off line industries (Interchange)

Good Luck with your work!

Lee

[dknelson]

Lee your idea of using the Walthers barge as a sort of staging yard is a good one. The Walthers book on Waterfronts has an article by Mike Ziegler on just that use of the barge and I have operated on Mike's layout (type "Conowingo Central" on an internet search engine for his website). The barge holds 12 cars but Mike does not use the center track (the little plastic turnout failed and he has decided not to fix it). Adding interest to this kind of staging yard is that barges had to be unloaded in a careful way to avoid tipping -- keep the imbalance to at most one car, and use flatcars to tend the barge because the locomotive must never be on the barge itself. This not only adds prototype flavor but makes unloading the barge a more time consuming activity, which allows even more operators to take part in an operating session. A barge is a great place to have cars leave and enter your layout's part of the railroad universe, and that is exactly the function of staging. In fact with care you could have two barges and simply interchange them with fresh cars EXCEPT -- cars roll off rather easily.
Dave Nelson

[ClinchValleySD40]

Staging represents the rest of the world - beyond the basement. Where did the cars come from to get onto your layout and where are they going when they leave. Staging.
It also gives you a great excuse to buy more equipment.

The barge idea is great. I have a friend that has a double deck layout and he uses a barge (car ferry actually) as an elevator between the two levels. Works great. It's on a wheeled platform and the two dock areas are on opposite walls, so it "sails" across the basement to deliver the cars.

[n2mopac]

In the instance you described you have two staging options. The first and easiest is to use the two yards you are modeling as visible online staging. This is what I think you are already planning without realizing it. In this case you are using modeled yards to stage trains representing outgoing trains to other towns, industries, railroads, etc. The other option you have is to include some hidden staging beyond each of your major yards where you can stage trains to represent traffic coming in to your yards on your railroad from another direction. This will allow you to simulate shipments that come from and go to beyond the modeled portion of your layout.

With the emphasis that is often placed on point to point model railroads, this often results in needing two staging yards which can be costly, time comsuming, and take up much needed space. One possible variation that can help this situation (the option I have taken) is to connect the ends of your point to point railroad with staging that is accessible at both ends. This alows you to get double duty out of your staging yard and has the added benefit of taking a railroad with a point to point look and operation scheme and adding the benefit of continuous running for the sake of visitors, open houses, etc.

I took this option on my layout. I model BNSF from Fort Worth to Wichita Falls, TX, but my staging yard connected to both ends of the layout represent traffic south to Houston and north to Denver as well as interchange traffic with UP and two short line railroads.

The option you choose all depends upon your operation goals, interests, time and money constraints. The important issue is to have some place where you can prepare incoming online trains with the cars that will be moved and switched on the layout during your operating session.

Ron

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your Staging ideas Mr. n2mopac, I have a friend who is running a rather good layout that has a 16 foot edge. His yard takes about maybe half of that. I think by inserting a switch and sneaking off the other side of the table, he may be able to loop down into a staging yard that "Hangs" below his main yard and have like room for 6 8-10 foot trains.

dknelson and clinchvalley, you have offered one of the greatest dangers of carrying a platmorm with cars (Barge, ferry etc) I think a wheeled conveyence with "Edges" that can connect without the risk of dropping a few valued cars may be the best.

Last night I spent a few minutes with the BLI's PRR 4-8-2 learning the analong sound and very very lightly breaking it in. I had a thought that as much as I like the idea of portable platforms for staging, I think I would best use the British "Cassete" type of staging for engines. It would be very painful to have an engine hit the floor as you try to move it between the work bench and layout. I like the foam car cradles, but may make one up of two of these to accomodate really large engines.

And one more idea for staging, there has been Ads taken into MR for a "Ladder" type stage racks that hold entire trains (Up to 6-8 feet anyways) that mounts on a wall and will rise and lower until the desired train is ready to roll off onto your layout. I love this concept, however my walls would never stand this load. Perhaps others may have found ways to transfer the load safely to the structure without the threat of it failing.

I am sorry to hear about the switch on the barge failing, is there a alternate method one can use to keep it from happening? Perhaps a sort of a metal Pawl that looks like a plastic pawl used on the spin the number wheel of a "Life" game from the toy store?

My two cents for the day.

[Anonymous]

I think staging is the answer if one wants to represent real railroad operations. That is my personal opinion, not necessarily shared by others. I have a double decked layout with the upper deck and approximately 1/2 of the lower deck being the visible part of the layout. The non-visible part of the layout consists of an eastbound and a westbound through track and 10 double ended sidings for each direction of traffic flow. In an operating session, up to 16 different trains run from staging , half in each direction. They make stops along the visible route, some to drop and/or pick up cars, or to get water and coal, or to change motive power. The visible part of the layout requires switching in the main yard, and supports 2 locals that require the entire operating session to fini***heir work. In addition, there are industries that need switching in the main industrial area and a local mine run that occurs twice per session. One passenger train per session in each direction can really force one to hustle as they have priority over every other train on the layout. With enough operators on hand, a session can require each crew be totally focussed

Eliminate the staging and the through nature of the operation ceases. No outside trains coming on or exiting the layout. The number of options is substantially reduced and the excitement of big time railroading vaporizes. I am an advocate for including substantial staging in any layout design.

Tom

[Anonymous]

Hey Guys, Thanks for the input. I've decided to put in the staging track as you've suggested now that I have a better handle on it's purpose. Before I tore out the small layout that I used to have, there were no staging areas. When a few friends would come over for operations, I would park the train outside of the yard to simulate an incoming train. Towards the end of the night, the out going train would be parked outside of the yard to simulate travel to the next town. I can see, understand now how much more convenient it would be to have a staging yard/track, one place for everything. While I have read about these staging yards, I just failed to understand their use and purpose. I've decided since I am going to have a helix at one end, that I can add a few loops to go down below the tracks and hide trains there till called upon later.

[Anonymous]

Just make sure your staging is accesible, because you'll need to reach it in order to modify consists or swap engines for cabeese or whatnot. I'm rebuilding my layout now, with two stub-end staging yards at the two endpoints of my line, but when I first built it, at a different location, I had room for a return-loop style staging track which (via crossovers and the like) served both endpoints; this allowed entire trains to exit at either end and then reappear at either end, so that my passenger trains could appear to have returned from their far-off destinations while my empty coal trains could run continuously north, loadeds south. Even with all that utility, I still left it as an open-air yard in my workshop rather than hiding it on a lower level. If you're going to helix down to it, go an extra turn or two for "0-5-0" switcher clearances.

[jrbarney]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Avondaleguy

. . . . go an extra turn or two for "0-5-0" switcher clearances.

Avondaleguy,
Your term may confuse some of the newbies who may not realize an 0-5-0 switcher is the same thing as what passes for a "5 finger discount" in some neighborhoods. Of course we are getting closer to 1 April. [:)]
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[Anonymous]

And I think in Europe a 0-5-0 is the same as our 0-10-0.

If I am wrong then serve me some crow. [8]

Lee

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jrbarney

QUOTE: Originally posted by Avondaleguy

. . . . go an extra turn or two for "0-5-0" switcher clearances.

Avondaleguy,
Your term may confuse some of the newbies who may not realize an 0-5-0 switcher is the same thing as what passes for a "5 finger discount" in some neighborhoods. Of course we are getting closer to 1 April. [:)]
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

aka a GP-5!

[jfugate]

A comment on staging ... the Siskiyou Line uses a double-ended staging yard and from experience I can tell you that I really like this kind of staging.

The two basic kinds of staging are stub end (a staging yard at each end of the layout ... Tony Koester uses the analogy of two forks handle to handle) while double-ended staging has each end of the layout connect to a single staging yard (put the two forks together on the prong ends).

You get a continuous run for showing the layout, and when staging trains, the train leaves staging, runs around the layout, then comes back into staging at the other end and the train's automatically staged for its next run ... presto!

[dano99a]

QUOTE: Originally posted by clinchvalley


It also gives you a great excuse to buy more equipment.

I think I'm gonna build a staging track now!! [:)]

[pmsteamman]

In the scale I model (1/8 or live steam) it is hard to stage trains in a way the "normal" modelers do, we just take them out of the trailers and run the wheels of them.

[Anonymous]

that is a great way to have an intermodal train or long distance Amtrak long distance passenger train that does not originate or destinate in any of the cities modeled. My club uses Staging yards solely for this purpose.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dano99a

QUOTE: Originally posted by clinchvalley


It also gives you a great excuse to buy more equipment.

I think I'm gonna build a staging track now!! [:)]

Just one?! [}:)]

[dano99a]

one BIG one!! 5 tracks... [:)]

[CP5415]

Staging here. If all goes well & the wife allows it, I'm going to build a bookshelf that has three 1' wide 10' long staging yards.
It's going to be built onto the layout along a common wall with 3 different entrance levels, each representing a different city or location.
I'm thinking that I'm going to have to build it then let her know.

Gordon

[johncolley]

Hawk, I am helping a friend get his layout ready for operations sessions. It is three levels representing the SP&S and Oregon Electric from Eugene up to Portland, OR and the major areas like yours are Salem and Albany, but he has staging at each end for Eugene and Willbridge. I have his layout plan if you want to see it. He is duplicating the major industries as they were in 1969. John Colley, Port Townsend,WA

[Anonymous]

It's kind of funny since iIjust got through searching for a Hamlet summary for school when I saw this.[:)][:)]

"To be or not to be, that is the question"

[jfugate]

One question people ask when discussing staging is: "how much do I need?"

Tony Koester says take the number of trains you want to run, mutiply by two and add 1. He's being a bit tongue-in-cheek, because he says you can never have too much staging, and you can always come up with a reason to add another staging track.

Still, the formula is a pretty good one, because you can always use more room for trains ready to run over the layout.

[Anonymous]

clinchvalley
I am very intrested in building an elevator for my HO layout, could you provide me with more information on the car ferry elevator or other types on elevators. I need a train to climb up 2-3ft in the space of the trains length.

I am building a rather large layout ( Springfield,MO. to Fort Smith, AR ) an old frisco line. but I am adding a very deep and rather large valley with an old steamer running the mine cars in/out. Not liking to thought of a helx or the space to build one, I want to have an open side elevator going up and down.

The height I am needing to travel is 2-3 ft straight up to the main line level. Any help would be good.

Thank you.

GreenIron

[Anonymous]

For GreenIron, someone mentioned an elevator somewhere but it will limit the length of your trains. I like to use the analogy of an old style barbell for staging, the kind you see in the comics. One loop is the staging area, the bar is the connection to the visible layout and the othe loop is the actual visible layout. By connecting both ends of the staging area to the one connection to both ends of the layout it allows you to turn trains after leaving one end of the layout or sending them in a circular path. Stub staging areas requires too much hand work or will need a loco turn-around of some type anyway. Real RR's do have a front and back end to their loco travel, you know. Save the stub end yards for the visible layout where you can generate operating interest (difficulties.) Staging is just a helper for whatever you are really trying to simulate.

[wmshay06]

Interested in thoughts on use of staging versus layover (basically a hidden siding where train sits for x amount of time) in the small to modest size layout. Consider the following scenario...

Moving up to a larger space that while still modest (and roughly sqaure too!) is still a 10x increase in RR space from before. Looked at 2-level design at one point with stub end staging, but quickly realized that there was way too much hidden track compared to the visible track. Came up with a kidney shaped design (if interested see http://www.bearweb.com/rr/indoorrr1.jpg) that fits most of the goals I had in mind. Hidden track includes longish passing siding long enough to hold 2 typical train lengths plus a stub siding - all level. Operations thoughts include - daily way freight (possible mixed), 2 hopper only trains[empty/loads], 1 general freight and maybe 1 passenger train. And oh by the way, there is no real yard - though a small one of just a few tracks might fit and as of yet no turntable or what have you - though again that can be fixed.


With that in mind does the layover & stub approach work or does there need to be more staging someplace?

[cwclark]

I don't care much for big staging yards..i believe the trains should be out on the layout and not in some hidden spot...i can see maybe no more than two trains sitting in a staging yard but no more...it takes up valuble space that is more suited for scenery instead of in hiding...a couple of trains is fine if you want to impress someone with...where did that train come from?...but no more than two trains if there isn't a lot of room to work with...now look what ya did!...i have to plan for a two train staging yard now that was not in the original plans!...[:D]

[ClinchValleySD40]

QUOTE: Originally posted by HighIron2003ar

And I think in Europe a 0-5-0 is the same as our 0-10-0.

If I am wrong then serve me some crow. [8]

Lee

And 0-10-0 is also used in O scale, so of that stuff is really heavy.

Another great thing about staging - you can buy more stuff and you can model another railroad (interchange with yours). Opens lots of doors.