Hi.
First, I hope this is posted in the right topic, seeing it's about layout building, and what is the first step to layout building? Layout planning!
That's where my trouble begins. I want to model the Chessie System in the late 1970's. I also want coal mining on my layout. But I'm not very good at planning layouts (I can't even plan a 4x8!).
Click the link to see the space I have.
http://http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k408/sleepingkittyproductions/layout.jpg
If you can help, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
~Justin
Modeling New Haven despite what his user name says...
If you haven't done so yet, you might try reading my short, "Beginner's Guide to Layout Design." You can get to it from my signature.
Two good reference books--the first is a must read are:
Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong,
Mid-sized and Manageable Track Plans, by Iain Rice.
You didn't tell us what scale you are talking about, but for that space I hope you are N scale. In HO about all you could get is the mine and an interchange.
If you are going in N and want continous running, you may want to add about 3-4 " on each end so you can have 13" radius curves so you can easily runn the bigger engines of your period.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
As an addendum to Willy's post - don't try to microplan where every tie, spike and lump of ballast will go. If you do, you'll discover that no overly detailed track plan ever survives the first turnout installation. This is especially true if you are trying to stuff a ten pound load of, 'things I HAVE to have,' into a five pound bag of space.
Contrariwise, if you allow yourself a little (or a lot of) flexibility, you will end up with a working layout in a lot less time, with a lot less stress.
One thing you have working for you is that you already have a good idea of what you want to model. That immediately eliminates a whole world full of questionable choices.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
As Chuck says, use your limitations as advantages.
For example: no room to run long unit trains? Then model a branch line that delivers the coal from the mine to the main for further routing and final delivery. This could be represented by a staging yard, or modeled directly, if compressed suitably to fit.
There are a huge array of choices to be made before building a layout, and narrowing down the possibilities can often bring the project into clearer focus.
Check out track plans that use the same basic form and those that fit in an equivalent space and try to use the sections that you like best, or think will work to accomplish the goals you have.
I'm still thinking that one of the track planning programs that allow you to virtually operate your plan may be a very good idea to see if the plan does indeed work, and if it will live up to most of your expectations. This could be money well invested before any actual benchwork is built. There are a few programs available and they seem to cost the equivalent of one decent locomotive.
I'm in much the same boat, so haven't got a firm track plan yet, but I've still got a year before the room is done, so I still have to try to cram that 10 lb load into my 5 lb space!
Good luck!
Hello everyone.
First, I would like to thank all of you for your advice so far. Now...
Spacemouse-I'll be sure to read your track planning guide once I'm done writing this! I'll also look for those books next time I'm at my LHS.
I plan on making this railroad in HO, seeing as that's mostly what's available where I live and I like the size. I hope I can still get what I want in the space!
Willy6-Sticking with it has been one of the hardest things so far, but I've gone from wanting a Burlington Northern layout to a British steam layout, and then to this. The Chessie System idea has stuck the longest, and I'm almost 100% sure I'll continue with it. Being a cat lover has influenced it some... =)
Tomikawa TT-I've had experienced micro-planning once. It didn't work too well. Anyway, I was trying to put a whole 20 pounds in the 5 pound bag. Oops!
Kcole4001-I might end up modelling a branch line, due to the relatively small space. I'm probably going to get one of those track planning program things because I don't want to spend lots of money on something that doesn't work. I'm only 13 so I don't have much money to begin with! Good luck to you also!
Just for ideas. Here's my layout in approximately your space. You would have to make a bend.
It is based on my home town in 1950. Here's a map from the time period.
and here's my track plan (done o the free program XtraCAD)
A coal mine on this size layout is a big commitment for the return. There is just so little you can do with it. It's pretty much empties in/loads out. On the other hand if you serviced an industrial district. You could sort what goes where and have a variety of moves. You could vary the types of deliveries from tankers to refers to box cars and flats to gondolas to coal cars. You can increase your variety many-fold by leaving a portion to staging.
Chessie Sys. 3022 wrote:I plan on making this railroad in HO, seeing as that's mostly what's available where I live and I like the size. I hope I can still get what I want in the space!
Probably not. But the noble art of comprimize is part and parcel when doing model railroading.
I would urge you to seriously consider going N scale (1:160) if you want to model coal trains in a 2 feet deep L-shaped area 10 x 6 feet.
Two reasons:
1) Lengths: H0 scale is 1:87.1, N scale is 1:160 - ie you can fit about 1.8 times as much train in the same space if you use N scale instead of H0 scale.
Consider a train of 10 40-foot cars. In H0 scale a 40' car in real life is 5.5" - and ten cars take 55" - about 4 1/2 foot. In N scale, a 40 foot car is about 5.5" / 1.8 = 3" - and ten cars is about 30" - 2 1/2 feet.
2) Turnback curves:
In H0 scale a rule of the thumb is that 20" radius curves are fairly tight - especially if you want long engines. 20" radius means 40" diameter. Leaving a little space on the outside of the track so you are not running right on the edge of the layout (long drop ...), and you need 4 feet (48") benchwork depth to turn around. Which makes the benchwork too deep for you to be able to reach comfortably to the innermost part of the loop - closest to the wall.
In N scale, an equally sharp (relative to train size) turnback loop can be 11" radius - making the diameter 22" radius - and that will fit on a 2 feet (24") deep shelf. You can reach reasonably well over 24 inches of buildings and landscape to reach a derailed car or work on the landscape.
Anyways - to give you some ideas about modelling appalachian coal mining - here is a web site dedicated to this subject - you might get some ideas:
http://members.tripod.com/appalachian_railroad/trackplans.html
Good luck about figuring out what you want to model and how you are going to model it.
Smile, Stein
SpaceMouse wrote:A coal mine on this size layout is a big commitment for the return. There is just so little you can do with it. It's pretty much empties in/loads out. On the other hand if you serviced an industrial district. You could sort what goes where and have a variety of moves. You could vary the types of deliveries from tankers to refers to box cars and flats to gondolas to coal cars. You can increase your variety many-fold by leaving a portion to staging.
Chip (Spacemouse) is making a good point here. Here is my layout plan - H0 scale, around the wall in a 11 1/2 foot by 6 1/2 foot room:
As you can see - you can fit in quite a bit of industrial switching in 10 x 5 feet - that is comparable to the top plus right hand side of the layout.
Another track plan that illustrates industrial railroading on a small 10 x 2 foot shelf in H0 scale:
http://members.aol.com/PWhiteMR/tenderfoot.html
Many options - only you can decide what you want to do and what is most important to you.
Grin, Stein
Although you've received good advice that it's generally true that this tight a space is often better-used for an industrial layout, all is not lost if you want to stay with a coal branch theme, even in HO.If you are willing to put up with tight curves (18" radius), this very rough sketch shows how 9 Atlas # 4 turnouts might build into a little coal branch layout with some possibilities. This sketch shows both a tipple (upper left) and truck dump (upper right), plus a mini-yard and some space for a few industrial tracks. Something like this might be a good way to get your feet wet.
The track curving around to the mines could be gently climbing, a nice way to add interest and to visually separate the mine at the upper left from the town areas below. This woudl also be a good place for you to try some grades on a layout.
It would help those who are trying to help you to know the constraints of the space you've shown. Are the top and right side ("A" and "B" in the sketch) solid walls, or open? [I've asumed for this sketch that "A" and "B" are walls.] If open, how firm is the angled boundary at "C"? A few small adjustments to the space you've shown will allow a broader radius than 18", which will help with reliability and access and allow you to use larger engines and cars. This roughly-sketched layout will require smaller engines and shorter cars for best results.
With just a little more space and some access along "A", for example, it would be easy to add some staging tracks to add operating interest.Again, this is just a rough sketch to suggest some ideas along with the more industrial-switching focused suggestions you have already received. Good luck and have fun!ByronModel RR Blog
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
thinking too loudly here, could one bridge acroos from the legs and create an oddly cornered triange? Fortunately for you, Long engines as staples did not the Chessie have. good choice of scenery too. Though I more orefer the kitty in her younger years. Say, ala George Washington.
EDIT: if the answer to the above is yes, then mayhaps you'd like this?
All you need for a flet is a GP30 or so, or two, a switcher, and some cars. A mine might have a small town next to it, hence the team track. This will require other things than just Hoppers. An engine house for the switcher, a plce to repair the hopper cars that frequent the mine, 4 "yard" tracks to stick extra hoppers, the occasional boxcar or tankcar, and a decent run for a roundy-round train.
Might I suggest staging underneath the layout too, to change up from the same hopper cars frequenting the outside loop. And if you can swing it, you might give yourself some room for the switcher to work the two inside tracks, but here's the thought food.
Oh, the center thing drawn by thin lines: I call it a dutch door. You open it and walk ing, close and latch it, and run trains. But make sure the mainline is stopped before opening the door...
-Morgan
cuyama wrote:Although you've received good advice that it's generally true that this tight a space is often better-used for an industrial layout, all is not lost if you want to stay with a coal branch theme, even in HO.If you are willing to put up with tight curves (18" radius), this very rough sketch shows how 9 Atlas # 4 turnouts might build into a little coal branch layout with some possibilities. This sketch shows both a tipple (upper left) and truck dump (upper right), plus a mini-yard and some space for a few industrial tracks. Something like this might be a good way to get your feet wet.The track curving around to the mines could be gently climbing, a nice way to add interest and to visually separate the mine at the upper left from the town areas below. This woudl also be a good place for you to try some grades on a layout.It would help those who are trying to help you to know the constraints of the space you've shown. Are the top and right side ("A" and "B" in the sketch) solid walls, or open? [I've asumed for this sketch that "A" and "B" are walls.] If open, how firm is the angled boundary at "C"? A few small adjustments to the space you've shown will allow a broader radius than 18", which will help with reliability and access and allow you to use larger engines and cars. This roughly-sketched layout will require smaller engines and shorter cars for best results.With just a little more space and some access along "A", for example, it would be easy to add some staging tracks to add operating interest.Again, this is just a rough sketch to suggest some ideas along with the more industrial-switching focused suggestions you have already received. Good luck and have fun!ByronModel RR Blog
i'm impressed , you've designed a very nice layout for such a small space .
the tight curves call for short engines , maybe GP9 or RS-3's or something . the good news is that coal cars tend to be fairly short anyway due to the high weight per volume of coal
ernie
cuyama wrote:If you are willing to put up with tight curves (18" radius), this very rough sketch shows how 9 Atlas # 4 turnouts might build into a little coal branch layout with some possibilities. This sketch shows both a tipple (upper left) and truck dump (upper right), plus a mini-yard and some space for a few industrial tracks. Something like this might be a good way to get your feet wet.
If you are willing to put up with tight curves (18" radius), this very rough sketch shows how 9 Atlas # 4 turnouts might build into a little coal branch layout with some possibilities. This sketch shows both a tipple (upper left) and truck dump (upper right), plus a mini-yard and some space for a few industrial tracks. Something like this might be a good way to get your feet wet.
Nice plan!
Thank you, everybody, for your help so far, and to the people who made track plans--I'm impressed!
I was talking to my friend yesterday (I think he's a member here under the name of Guilford Guy) and he had the idea of a triple-deck layout. Lowest is staging, upper two are mainline and whatnot. They'd all be connected by a helix. This would allow me to have even more on my layout and even more industries. I think I might drift away from the mine idea and focus on other industries.
So, what do you think of that idea?
Chessie Sys. 3022 wrote: Thank you, everybody, for your help so far, and to the people who made track plans--I'm impressed!I was talking to my friend yesterday (I think he's a member here under the name of Guilford Guy) and he had the idea of a triple-deck layout. Lowest is staging, upper two are mainline and whatnot. They'd all be connected by a helix. This would allow me to have even more on my layout and even more industries. I think I might drift away from the mine idea and focus on other industries.So, what do you think of that idea?~Justin
I think it is a less than optimal idea in your situation.
You are not going to get continuous run anyways unless you have a loopback curve on each shelf at the end furthest from the helix.
We already know that an 18" radius turnback curve will be a tight squeeze in your space.
A helix will probably need a quite a bit bigger radius to work with anything but extremely short trains - because you will be hauling uphill as well as in a curve. Combining those two really zaps pulling power from trains.
If you want multiple decks, do it simpler - just build two different layouts over each other and operate the layouts like your train leaves one layout and arrives on the other - like having one shelf layout with a mine, and one with a harbor scene or some such thing, using a hand lifted cassette to transfer a train from one level to another.
A cassette also allows you to turn trains fairly easily, without having to model the area necessary to turn the train around.
But the easiest of all would be to take the idea Byron gave you and run with that - it ought to be reasonably simple and inexpensive to build and fun to operate.
Thanks, Ernie and Stein. It looks like our original poster isn't interested in the idea, but hopefully someone will get something out of it.
Chessie Sys. 3022 wrote: ... the idea of a triple-deck layout. Lowest is staging, upper two are mainline and whatnot. They'd all be connected by a helix.
... the idea of a triple-deck layout. Lowest is staging, upper two are mainline and whatnot. They'd all be connected by a helix.
Justin, sorry, but an 18" radius helix with HO standard gauge is not very workable. So unless you have a lot more room than you drew, it's not practical. And a helix is pretty difficult to construct as a first model railroading project.
Also, for a first layout I think it's a good idea to keep things a bit simpler so you have a good chance of success. I used a plan from a book to build my first layout at age 14, but the grades were so steep that it never really worked. I became frustrated and lost interest quickly -- then I didn't get back to model railroading for twenty years. Whatever you decide, try to be realistic about your available space, time, skills, and dollars.
ByronModel RR Blog
Maybe constructing the layout in modules will help keep interest high while still fitting into available space. Leave open possibilities for expansion to future modules should the space situation improve (it will eventually, but it may not be for a long time).
This will give you valuable first hand experience with the hands on things like track laying, wiring, and scenery. You'll also get to try some limited operation, this will serve you well later when your plans mature. You'll have a better idea of what you really enjoy, and what you don't want to spend a lot of time on.
A little bit of hands on practice comes in very handy. There's no substitute.