Modleing Water

[Anonymous]

I have a couple of questions regarding water. I planned on using Envirotex to model my water. Can this be used witrh paper mache? If not, what can I put down to use it with ie: (plaster cloth).

Secondly, I have a foam base on my layout and would like to model a lake using envirotex. Can I just mix and pour into the area I have carved out or do I have to treat the foam with something to protect it first?

Maybe Envirotex isn't what I want for this? Is that a good choice or should I think about another product?

Thanks for any advice.

Ross

[Anonymous]

Hey Ross
I never used Evirotex for water because there are better products for this purpose on the market and other techiques like using clear gloss over a painted on river or lake bed. I also read Evirotex gives off fumes that'll knock you out untill it cures and it is also difficult to keep clean from dust. Evirotex, I believe, will eat a hole through the foam! [:O][censored] Even if you protect it with latex paint, all it would need to do is find a pin hole.

E-Z water from Woodland Scenics, which you melt the pellets, can be used on foam but it may damage the foam if you make it too hot. Woodland Scenics does make other "water" called Realistic Water and Water Effects (click on the highlited words) SEE WARNING BELOW FROM wmlugan about Relistic Water

You don't have to dig a hole and fill it in to model deep water. There is detailed information on Woodland Scenics web site. Click on to "information" then click on "color water"
I would also recommend any of these books to learn other techniques.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the Realistic water from Woodland Scenics. If your using a foam DO NOT use this product. It will swell up the foam. I used it for my streams and ponds and had this problem. To solve the problem though you can put a base of plaster and paint it first. I learned and changed.

[dragenrider]

After good sealing and painting, my ponds and lakes have turned out wonderful with Woodland Scenics' premixed solution. You can even have underwater details like logs, etc.

[MAbruce]

I used Acrylic Gloss Medium. It's safer and can be used on foam (at least I did with no problems). Here is a picture of my results so you can judge for yourself. The first is a pond, and the second is a stream:

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

I used Acrylic Gloss Medium. It's safer and can be used on foam (at least I did with no problems). Here is a picture of my results so you can judge for yourself. The first is a pond, and the second is a stream:

That's what I'm talking about! The lake looks deep but it's only painted on.
Good Job MAbruce!

[wp8thsub]

QUOTE:
I never used Evirotex for water because there are better products for this purpose on the market and other techiques like using clear gloss over a painted on river or lake bed. I also read Evirotex gives off fumes that'll knock you out untill it cures and it is also difficult to keep clean from dust.

This quote really leaves me curious, are you thinking of polyester resin? Envirotex (and the essentially identical Crystal Sheen) is epoxy resin that doesn't have much odor at all. I've used a lot of epoxy resin for water over the years and it's the best product I've found. It's easy to mix, easy to color with hobby enamel and leaves a great representation of depth that other products can't match. I don't have any personal experience using it over foam, so I haven't witnessed the unfortunate side effects of foam riverbeds dissolving away.

Keeping dust off is a non-issue. Epoxy resin cures perfectly smooth, which doesn't look like the surface of real water by itself. I add wave texture with acrylic gloss medium. Effects like rapids can be built up with thicker products like acrylic gel medium and painted to represent whitewater. Any dust that settles on the resin is covered by the gloss medium.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
....This quote really leaves me curious, are you thinking of polyester resin?.....

I read in a scenery book about warning to use it with adequate ventilation. The book was pretty old (it suggested to mix asbestos with plaster) and I can't find right now, to see what brand or type was mentioned. However it was the same as resin used for bar tops.
I also read other articles on modeling water using the resin method and the warning about fumes. Like I said I never used it, so I can't say how bad the smell is. Considering where I work, it wouldn't bother me, but other people might be sensitive to it.

QUOTE: Keeping dust off is a non-issue....... I add wave texture with acrylic gloss medium... Any dust that settles on the resin is covered by the gloss medium.

I read an artical in Model Railroader about Woodland Scenics E-Z Water and the advantage it had over resin. One issue about dust was a complaint that resin showed dust and was difficult to clean, whereas the E-Z water just needed to be reheated with a heat gun or hair dryer.
Of course, like you said, you can paint clear gloss medium over it to kill the dust.
As for using it on foam, anything flammable or a solvent melts bare foam. If you seal the foam with plaster and paint first, you may not have a problem. However, if it should somehow seep through, you'd be pulling your hair out.

Another artical I read in M.R. was a fella used a thin sheet of plexi glass over a deep ravine that ran to the front opened to the facia. He cut a hole for a boat. A fishing line with a hook and worm was hanging through the water. Old cars and all kinds of debris on the bottom. He painted waves on top of the plexi glass with clear silicone. The author said he didn't like the way the water just ended at the facia with the facia looking like a dam, so he came up a unique solution.
There are many different ways to model water and whatever works for you is best.

[snowey]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

I used Acrylic Gloss Medium. It's safer and can be used on foam (at least I did with no problems). Here is a picture of my results so you can judge for yourself. The first is a pond, and the second is a stream:

That's what I'm talking about! The lake looks deep but it's only painted on.
Good Job MAbruce!

did you mix the gloss medium with paint and apply it in layers? Or did you just paint the surface color, and then brushed gloss medium over it?

[MAbruce]

QUOTE: Originally posted by snowey
did you mix the gloss medium with paint and apply it in layers? Or did you just paint the surface color, and then brushed gloss medium over it?

Here was how the pond was done. First, the whole thing is in a hollowed out Styrofoam base. I used one of those one inch thick white bead Styrofoam insulation panels you can purchase at a home center like Home Depot. However, I would not recommend you use the white bead material because it can get quite messy when digging out the area of water. If I did it again, I would use the pink or blue foam board, which will probably cost a little more, but would be much easier to work with and far less of a mess. I think I was vacuuming up little white foam beads for a week, and picking them out of my scenery for a couple of months! They got everywhere!

1. Hollow out the area of the pond/lake. Do not go further than a quarter of an inch down. Make sure that the pond depth is even (don’t make any part of the pond deeper than the other).

2. The entire pond/lake area should not have any holes that go through the foam. You can test it out by putting a little water in it to see if it holds. If you find a hole, you need to plug it (I used some cheap white caulk I had around). I actually had to seal mine because my pond fell between two prices of foam, and the seam between had to be sealed.

3. Apply a thin coat of Gloss Medium (I used “Mod Podge Gloss-Lustre”) to the bottom of the pond with a brush. This will seal everything and act as a good base for the paint, as I discovered that the paint didn’t cover evenly on type of foam I used, and I’m not sure how it would spread on the other types.

NOTE: The Gloss medium looks like white glue, but will dry clear.

4. Once the first layer of Gloss Medium is dry, paint the bottom of the pond. This is where your artistic abilities are exercised. I first recommend that you look over pictures (or observe in person) the type of pond/lake you want to model. Note the base color. Most look like a murky brown/dark green.

I used Apple Barrel water based acrylic paint #20756 – English Ivy Green as my primary color. I also used white and black in order to lighten and darken this color as needed. You can really start with any primary color that you feel would make a good body of water (experiment a little!). Start with a lighter shade of your primary color on the outside edges of the pond/lake, and then darken it as you paint in towards the middle. The lighter shade gives the illusion of shallow water, and darker for deeper water. Don’t panic if you don’t think you got it right the first time, because you can always wait until the paint dries and try again. You can even add some small rocks, and other debris in the shallow end to enhance the detail.

5. Once you are satisfied with the painting results, and the paint is dry, smooth on a thin coat of Gloss Medium with a larger brush or putty knife. It will dry clear and leave a glossy surface that looks wet. Once dry, a second coat may be necessary (It all depends on if you like the way the first coat turns out). If you don’t like it at all, you can actually paint the pond again and repeat this step.

For the Stream, I painted over a wood surface with the same colors, added some rocks that I made from plaster chips, and poured in the Gloss medium (carefully smoothing it around the rocks – not over them). My banks were built up with plaster cloth (before the stream was made).

I hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

I'm sold on the Woodland Scenics Realistic Water. It works great. Just put down a layer of plaster cloth as normal. Once dry, use water colors to paint the bottom colors and add logs and debris. Pour the Realistic water slowly and fill the area. If the water is not deep enough after it drys just pour some more on top. Incredible and easy to use product. You can even scratch little ripples in it. NO HEATING REQUIRED!!!!

RMax

[wp8thsub]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gsetter
I read in a scenery book about warning to use it with adequate ventilation. The book was pretty old (it suggested to mix asbestos with plaster) and I can't find right now, to see what brand or type was mentioned. However it was the same as resin used for bar tops.

It sounds like this may be the same old book I read that talked about polyester resin. That stuff is truly nasty to work with; it has a powerful odor and will generate significant heat while curing (I read about one guy who melted plastic bridge piers with it). The only real advantage polyester has is that can be poured fairly deep. It also has a rippled surface, but acrylic gloss over epoxy gives a more controllable effect.

Epoxy resin was developed after some of the early scenery books were written. It's basically like 5-minute epoxy glue but comes in bigger containers and sets up slower. Epoxy doesn't have much odor, but I wouldn't want to hang around in the train room and inhale deeply as it cures either.

As you indicated, the best method is probably the one the modeler is most comfortable with.

[Anonymous]

You may have already read it, but there is another post concerning Realistic Water turning yellow (HO scale bears peeing in the lake?).
Here's a tip. Check for color fastness no mater what you use.
Here's a link to"YELLOW WATER"