You would have better luck with your inquiry by putting it on the model trains forum - try the layouts & layout building threads . . . This one is strictly for real trains (classics from the 20s, 30s, etc.)
Good luck!
StreetSmart wrote: You would have better luck with your inquiry by putting it on the model trains forum - try the layouts & layout building threads . . . This one is strictly for real trains (classics from the 20s, 30s, etc.)Good luck!
Last time I looked, this was the Model Railroad forum!
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Rotorranch wrote: StreetSmart wrote: You would have better luck with your inquiry by putting it on the model trains forum - try the layouts & layout building threads . . . This one is strictly for real trains (classics from the 20s, 30s, etc.)Good luck! Last time I looked, this was the Model Railroad forum! Rotor
Roto, I moved this post from eslewhere, so the first response isn't going to make sense to you in context. I should have posted an explanation, but neglected to do it.
-Crandell
Sounds like what you need is a hefty electric winch, stainless cable and some marine-grade sheaves. The optimum lift points would be directly over the points where the legs will be attached.
You might want to talk to a yacht supply dealer. That sort of rig would be right down their alley.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
3 matched jack-screws would probably do the job, as that would give you the 3-point stability you need, along with a true vertical lift.
There was another thread here a week or two ago about other options for this sort of thing. I always get the feeling that most layout-lift schemes come out as marginally-successful Rube Goldberg contraptions. I'm not sure I would be comfortable having my layout suspended by a bunch of ropes and pulleys. There are just too many chances for disaster.
Would the owner consider a variation on the "Murphy Bed?" Depending on the layout's size, this might do the job. Of course, having a rotational axis on one side of the layout would mean that the trains have to be removed prior to lifting, but that may be acceptable. If this is to be a garage installation, a full 90 degrees of rotation may not be necessary. If the hinge is mounted on the wall opposite the garage door, then a rotation of 30-45 degrees may be sufficient to get the nose of the car under the layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley wrote:3 matched jack-screws would probably do the job, as that would give you the 3-point stability you need, along with a true vertical lift...Would the owner consider a variation on the "Murphy Bed?" ...
3 matched jack-screws would probably do the job, as that would give you the 3-point stability you need, along with a true vertical lift...
Would the owner consider a variation on the "Murphy Bed?" ...
I don't think jack screws would do the job. They'e either have to either be fixed posts in the room or raise themselves up into the attic... which presumes sufficient attic space above the room. I've actually thought about a canopy type bed where the four posts are jack screws, but building such a device is far beyond my meger carpentry and mechanical skills.
The specified layout space was 8x8. The idea of the murphy bed would require something the size of a king size bed or larger. This would not only require that the trains be removed from the layout before storage... which could be a huge hassle, it would also require the entire landscape including all buildings, cars, etc. to be glued down very solid.
Of the suggestions made so far, chandiler winches and yatch supply dealers are the most thought provoking ideas so far. I'll be watching this thread with interest.
Best!
Some important points for a vertical hoist system:
Again, not an issue for you as the builder. But of all the "hoistable" and "foldable" model railroads I have read about, none seem to have survived more than 5 years. I'm guessing at the reasons, but I suspect the inconvenience of use mean the owner loses interest more quickly than with a fixed layout. I believe the inconvenience of getting ready to run trains, combined with the extra effort, engineering, and $$ to make the layout hoistable tend to make these layouts better in theory than in execution. The final reason for the premature end would be the limitations of the format. Expansion is almost impossible, and one is pretty much limited to a reasonable size rectangle or similar shape.
just my thoughts
Fred W
1) the frame of the layout will need to be completely rigid . model railroad scenery will crack and break off if there is any flexing
2) the guy who builds this contraption gets to be the first to stand under it after it's hoisted up . wear your hard hat to be safe
ernie
I have one in the garage, 7 X 12 feet (so it fits inside the garage door opener rails)
Single pulleys lagged into the ceiling overhead. Presently using nylon rope and cheap pulleys. Bit resistant to up/down motion. Replacements will be steel cable and appropriate ball bearing pulleys.
Six lift points on mine. All ropes lead to a single counterweight via eyebolts. Counterweight is presently wood frame filled with pavers to allow for adjustment as construction progresses. Once construction complete I will have an equivalent steel and lead counterweight (one) fabricated.
Eyebolts are used to adjust length of line so layout is level even if "legs" are not under it. If they all go the same counterweight there is no issue on angles of rope as listed above. I use foldable sawhorses for the legs.
Even as coarse as my present system is I do not have "earthquakes" on the layout serious enough to cause derailments, and with the device as designed it goes up and down level so even free cars in the yard don't roll around.
When well lubricated I can easily move it up and down by muscle strength alone. Find out what is its "normal" position and counterweight for that position, the other one can be the one that uses a low power winch.
Have had mine for 5 years with no problems, and it won't be going away soon. I suspect that the major reason people don't have success is the frame has to be rock solid and engineered so it wont flex or wrack.
Jack W
skir4d wrote: I have one in the garage, 7 X 12 feet (so it fits inside the garage door opener rails)Single pulleys lagged into the ceiling overhead. Presently using nylon rope and cheap pulleys. Bit resistant to up/down motion. Replacements will be steel cable and appropriate ball bearing pulleys.Six lift points on mine. All ropes lead to a single counterweight via eyebolts. Counterweight is presently wood frame filled with pavers to allow for adjustment as construction progresses. Once construction complete I will have an equivalent steel and lead counterweight (one) fabricated. Eyebolts are used to adjust length of line so layout is level even if "legs" are not under it. If they all go the same counterweight there is no issue on angles of rope as listed above. I use foldable sawhorses for the legs.
Unfortunately, even when all lines are tied to the same point, the downlead angles still have to be all the same for the layout to rise evenly. If the downleads are at different angles, the vertical component of the rise will be different for the same amount of pull. As you point out, 1/10 of a millimeter accuracy is not required. The stretch of rope will compensate for minor differences.
Even as coarse as my present system is I do not have "earthquakes" on the layout serious enough to cause derailments, and with the device as designed it goes up and down level so even free cars in the yard don't roll around. When well lubricated I can easily move it up and down by muscle strength alone. Find out what is its "normal" position and counterweight for that position, the other one can be the one that uses a low power winch.Have had mine for 5 years with no problems, and it won't be going away soon. I suspect that the major reason people don't have success is the frame has to be rock solid and engineered so it wont flex or wrack. Jack W
I suspect you are correct about the frame being the most common cause of failure. And I'm glad to be proven wrong - that there is at least one hoisting layout that has happily survived more than 5 years.
I haven't built such a system, but have given it some thought. I would start with someone that builds and installs boat lifts. It is a similar situation in that you have to lift 4 corners equally. I'm not sure if it is the most economical, but as a home builder you have to be concerned with reliablity, so you may want to sub contract it to the boat lift company. I have seen several inland boat houses with such a lift.
Some sort of metal frame supporting the wood structure will help with the weight and preventing racking.
Fred
You are correct, if the lead angle from the frame to the roof is significantly off vertical then a foot shorter would not necessarily equal a foot higher, even if led to the same point at the counterweight end. I stand corrected/clarified on that point.
However, seeing the best lead angle is vertical from the frame to the roof and from the roof to the counterweight (which mine are)I don't see a significant difference from elevated to non elevated.
To better explain, the "rope" goes up from the frame to the roof through a pulley, along the roof to another pulley, then down to the counterweight. Thus, all "vertical" sections are very close to vertical, and thus no major difference in level top to bottom. (by the way, when it was initially checked on construction it was level at top and bottom, or as level as I needed it to be.
Buy the way, this is its fifth year, so we havn't passed your time frame yet . Also, this is not a project for the faint at heart or someone who doesn't understand the forves involved. I did a significant amount load calculations before I started construction, and I've spread the point loads on the "roof" out over several "joists". This might not be necessary, but it gives you some peace of mind when its elevated and your running wiring under it
Battleship:
A few years ago, I cobbled together an electric lift system to suspend a 6' by 6' layout from the ceiling of my son's bedroom. A recent remodel deleted that bedroom so the system is no longer in place and I have no photos of it. However, the lift system wasn't difficult to engineer.
I started with a cheap 120 volt electric winch from Harbor Freight Tools (the 440 pound model). I mounted the winch low on one wall of the bedroom. A 3' long piece of aluminum flat stock was then attached to the winch cable. Let's call this piece the "spreader bar." The winch cable attached to a hole drilled near the bottom edge of the flat spreader bar at the mid point of the piece. Two more holes were drilled near the top edge of the spreader bar near each end of the piece (four total). Next, two small double roller pulleys (Ace Hardware) were attached to the ceiling studs directly above the ends of the spreader bar when centered over the winch. Two small single roller pulleys were attached to the ceiling joists above the far corners of the layout from the winch. Vinyl coated steel cables were then threaded through one side of the double pulleys and through the pulleys above the far side of the layout. The cable ends were attached to the spreader bar using conventional cable clamps. The other end of the cables were threaded through the layout frame. Originally, cable clamps were also used to terminate the layout ends of the clamps but they kept slipping. I later found these slick one-way spring clamps at OSH that solved both the alignment and slippage problems. These clamps look like little galvanized metal traffic cones. You simply slip the end of the cable into the top of the cone, then pull the cable through to the correct length. You cannot pull the cable back out without the special release tool. USE THESE THINGS!
The other problem I ran into was keeping the layout level as it went up and down. I originally connected the near corners of the layout directly to the corresponding ends of the spreader bar using another single pulley over each near side layout corner. The problem was that the layout would shift from side to side. The shift was usually not too bad, but sometimes I swore the layout wanted to flip. The cure was to add a second pair of pulleys near the two pulleys over the near corners of the layout. Then, each near corner cable was run up to the original pulley directly above the layout corner, then across the ceiling above the near side of the layout to the new pulley above the opposite near side corner. The cable was threaded through this new pulley, then through the double pulley above the winch and down to the spreader bar. The result was that each end of the spreader bar lifted diagonally opposite corners of the layout. NO MORE SHIFTING EVER AGAIN! By the way, I live in earthquake country (SO CAL) and never had a problem with the layout falling or dropping anything. To make sure, once the hoist sysetm was complete, I grabbed the underside of the layout framing and lifted myself (205 pounds) off of the floor, then bounced a few times. The layout frame creaked a little but not even a squeak out of the hoist system.
Once I solved the side to side shifting and installed the spring clamps under the layout, this lift system worked flawlessly for another two years. The electric winch moved the layout up to the ceiling or down to operating height in about 30 seconds. I had fabricated pockets in the layout frame into which 2" by 2" wood legs could be inserted. Once inserted, a pin would keep the legs from sliding back out of the pockets. One huge advantage to a lifting layout is that underside electrical wiring can be performed standing or sitting with the layout height adjusted to a comfortable overhead reach.
A word of caution. Knowing that I intended to suspend the layout from the outset, I built it to be strong and lightweight. I don't think it ever weighed more than about 75 pounds even with scenery and trains on it. A 600 pound layout might require a bit more robust hoist then the one I put together. One other note: Virtually all of the pulleys, cables and spring clamps come with disclaimers stating "Not for Overhead Use." Use caution and always overengineer.
Hornblower
hornblower wrote:Originally, cable clamps were also used to terminate the layout ends of the clamps but they kept slipping. I later found these slick one-way spring clamps at OSH that solved both the alignment and slippage problems.
Joslin527,
I used to have pictures of this lift system somewhere as I took a few to post on the Atlas HO Scale Forum. I don't really know what I did with the disc I had these pictures on. However, we might be able to find the post in the Atlas forum archives.
I found this online. Looks pretty good - dovetail joints and all:
http://www.losalamos.com/tauxe/ho/
My dad made something similar to lift my 5 X 6 foot layout when I was a kid. We used block and tackle rigging on each corner so I could operate it by myself. It worked well and the rigging kept things moving slowly.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.