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Innovative Solutions for Duck Unders?

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Innovative Solutions for Duck Unders?
Posted by Capt. Grimek on Monday, June 16, 2008 9:10 PM
I'm very close to choosing the "Wabeek and Sunmount Railway for my next layout. (Track Planning Ideas 58 track plans from Model Railroader pg. 33). This is the layout that prompted my thread about swing gates/lift gates on curves.
I've been wracking my brains to come up with a place that will work but there's just too much trackage and distance...
Our local track planning "guru" is going to try and redraw the plan a bit, but there's no room for dogbone
loops, etc. most likely. If he doesn't come up with something I wondered:

...aside from building high and using a roller chair/stool has anyone come up with more "innovative/creative" solutions? I'm lobbying for a trap door/ladder coming up from the cellar into the center of the doughnut layout, but that has it's own problems I'd like to avoid. (Cost, damp mildewy
cold air rising up into the train room, etc.)

Just thought I'd ask, while I shop for a "speed racer" stool :-)

Thanks.

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Posted by fredswain on Monday, June 16, 2008 11:39 PM
There is a gentleman here in Houston who has a large HO layout. It has expanded into a small second room of the house. It has a duck under but not a conventional one. It moves up. It is on a track system on each side of the door and has a linear actuator that can move it up out of the way. When it comes down, it has aligning pins that ensure that the track is perfect. Very innovative. He's not the most nimble person anymore in his age so a different solution was needed. It's pretty neat but did require some custom work to do. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of it.
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Posted by corsair7 on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:53 AM

 fredswain wrote:
There is a gentleman here in Houston who has a large HO layout. It has expanded into a small second room of the house. It has a duck under but not a conventional one. It moves up. It is on a track system on each side of the door and has a linear actuator that can move it up out of the way. When it comes down, it has aligning pins that ensure that the track is perfect. Very innovative. He's not the most nimble person anymore in his age so a different solution was needed. It's pretty neat but did require some custom work to do. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of it.

Well one could presumably do what the LIRR did when they were confronted with an ever increasing number of automobiles not waiting for trains to clear the crossings that exist on the southern part of Nassau and Suffolk Counties here in NYS. The dug underpasses for the automobiles and eliminated the crossings altogether.

So one could dig a pit with a staircase going down one side of the former duckunder and another staircase going up on the other. Mischief [:-,]

Irv

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Posted by ndbprr on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 11:13 AM
The most innovative solution for a duckunder is to eliminate it.  For some reason the older you get the lower it gets.
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Posted by gandydancer19 on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:39 PM

You may be approaching the problem in the wrong way. Are you trying to make a section of the layout act as a lift, drop, or swing access? If you are, that may be your problem. You might have to loose the "layout" part under the tracks where the access is to be, and build just the access bridges.

In other words, if you have a section of the layout that crosses in front of a door and has three or four tracks on it at different levels, or even the same level, make a drop, or lift bridge for each track, separate from the other. Make them look like bridges, models in themselves, although they would be longer and not supported as the prototype. Your access into the center of the layout just became the giant chasm that the Railroad had to build several special bridges to cross.

Elmer.

The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.

(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:52 PM

If the vertical lift idea doesn't appeal, you could go part of the Joe Fugate mushroom route.

Leave the doorway as-is (presuming the door swings outward or has been removed.)  Once inside the room, climb the steps to the level of the false floor, then turn around and drop the trap door to close the canyon.  Your head will be a lot closer to the ceiling, but the layout will be at a not-unreasonable height.  And the duckunder will be, at worst, a nod-under.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:46 PM
Elmer, Your idea is along the lines of what I've been thinking with past candidate track plans. With the design I have pretty much settled on, I'd have some industries/sidings in the way so there'd be more than bridges and chasms, but I'm playing around with something in this range. If not for the industrial switching
what you've suggested would be easier. This is a pretty operationally packed track plan. I'm going to see I can make a BIG lift up gate that includes the small industries and trackage on foam (the rest will be plywood).

Chuck, my ceiliing is pretty low in this room so this won't work for me, but these suggestions will be of help to others. Keep it up guys good suggestions here.

I think ease of "traveling" under and through 4' of duck under is the path I'll need to pursue.
I don't think I'll mind a roller chair too much but I want to make that arrangement as comfy and
easy for older guests as possible. I'm weighing that with the trap door ladder from the cellar below up into
to the train room. Easier in some ways but a much longer trip to the bathroom.

I'll know in another week or so what the local guy who's scale drawing ideas for me comes up with.
I'll have an extra four feet of length and two of width to play with so hopefully I can move things around
the oval some and make room for access with Elmer's notion.

Thanks everyone.


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Posted by chicochip on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 8:07 PM

I have a hinged drop section that supports three tracks on two levels. It provides great ingress and egress UNLESS something goes wrong on the outside when I'm in, or the inside when I'm out. When stuff happens, I have to unhook the whole *%@? thing to get in or get out. When I designed this layout I was 36. I could "scoot" under that drop section with no effort. I can't do that anymore. Lately, I've tried to fool myself into thinking that the "duck under" might give me a reason to get into better shape, and therefore I would do so...............well.............guess how well that has worked! I've tried a very short rolling stool to scoot myself under the expanse with limited success. I have to report that 75% of the time, I either hit my head or scrape my back on the under-side of the drop section when I try this.

My recommendation, after dealing with such an arrangement for nearly 20 years, is DON'T DO IT!!  In my case, it has limited enjoyment of running, maintaining, and scenicing the layout simply because of the "hassle factor" associated with raising or dropping the section - or the consequential visits to the chiropractor.

Re-design your track plan, or build your prevailing bench level at, say, 72 inches above the floor.

 

chicochip

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Posted by fwright on Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:47 AM
 chicochip wrote:

I have a hinged drop section that supports three tracks on two levels. It provides great ingress and egress UNLESS something goes wrong on the outside when I'm in, or the inside when I'm out. When stuff happens, I have to unhook the whole *%@? thing to get in or get out. When I designed this layout I was 36. I could "scoot" under that drop section with no effort. I can't do that anymore. Lately, I've tried to fool myself into thinking that the "duck under" might give me a reason to get into better shape, and therefore I would do so...............well.............guess how well that has worked! I've tried a very short rolling stool to scoot myself under the expanse with limited success. I have to report that 75% of the time, I either hit my head or scrape my back on the under-side of the drop section when I try this.

Another often unmentioned consequence is the magnitude 9 (on the model Richter scale) earthquakes that accompany the headache or scraped back.  Your little people and trains, hardy as they are, still often get toppled.  The ultimate disaster is trying to get under quickly to save a train from a 4ft impact test with the floor, and hitting the access point with shoulder, head, or back and generating an earthquake that launches a second train in its 4ft impact test.  3 times the pain (self and 2 trains).  Don't ask how I learned this....

 

My recommendation, after dealing with such an arrangement for nearly 20 years, is DON'T DO IT!!  In my case, it has limited enjoyment of running, maintaining, and scenicing the layout simply because of the "hassle factor" associated with raising or dropping the section - or the consequential visits to the chiropractor.

Re-design your track plan, or build your prevailing bench level at, say, 72 inches above the floor.

 

But the temptation is so strong - I can get so much more layout for the price of one simple gate/liftout/duckunder!  And I am so weak....resistance is futile....

Just keep in mind that when you need to get across quickly, any liftout or gate becomes a duckunder by default.  The higher and narrower the better.

Another point - narrow aisles also have a tendency to lead to body strikes and model earthquakes.  Especially when you are in a hurry.

Is the extra layout worth the pain - a pain that only gets worse as the years increase?  Only you can answer that for you.  There are plenty of model railroaders whom I respect who vehemently disagree on this subject.  To quote another forum member, model railroading is often an intensely personal hobby.

Fred W

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Friday, June 20, 2008 6:25 PM
Thanks as always, guys.
I met with the fellow who's re-drawing my track plan out to scale. He's already had ideas for extending the layout a bit beneath the industrial switching area and having room for a lift or swing gate. He thinks he
might even have something worked out for leaving the inward opening door but I'm open to reversing it.
rolleiman who has been very helpful,suggested the specific area to insert a gate lst, so credit where credit is due! I was happy when I got together with my "guru" after that good advice, to see that he was on the same page.
We'll see if a duck under can be avoided after all. If not, he thinks he's got one spot down to only about 16" wide which beats 4 feet by...well 2.5 ft. I hope so, but just in case..any other ideas here are helpful and fun to hear about.

The wall that was dividing the train room in half came down today! After a bit of dry walling
and painting it'll be bench work time at last! Hopefully in a couple of weeks time. Late July at most! Hopefully I'll have a "scale sketch" in a week or two.

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Saturday, June 21, 2008 3:54 AM

My lower level benchwork is too low for a duckunder and the doorway space too narrow for some type of hinged crossing, so I did a variation of a liftout section. I put legs and castors on it. It just slides right in and lines itself up. And it can  still be used as an emergency crawlunder (yuk).

I use an old set of video plugs to make the 8 conductor connection. I intend to put in a micro switch to shut off the approach tracks and some other finishing touches. It's been working great for 10 years or so.

 

Jay 

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Posted by johncolley on Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:17 AM

Good morning, Harvey Wallbanger, Another friend here in Port townsend where we hold our regular Wed. evening sessions has a great solution. He has the door reversed to open out into the laundry room. Using formed steel or aluminum channel on the order of 1/2x1" for stiffness under the bridges, he has built plastic bridge sets on his parallel but separate tracks across the doorway. They are even at a different height. They are both hinged on the same side and swing up. He has also cleverly installed tiny microswitches so that if the bridge is up the track is dead for 12" on each approach to the bridge. At the open end he notched out the seat for the channel to fit snugly and has no problems with rail alignment. I will show you when you come down.

Be sure you clean up all the drywall and mud dust and prime the new drywall, eh? Otherwise your layout will always have a light coat of the dust. John Colley, Port Townsend, WA

jc5729
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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:57 AM
Hi modelmaker51 and John,
mm51, what method do you use at the track connection/line up level to be sure there are no derailments?
This is a cool idea. I'd wondered if a "slide in" gate would work. Can you please post a pic or two showing
how things line up at track level? I knew there'd be some interesting and innovative ideas forthcoming here. Everytime we think we've seen or heard it all... Thanks.

Hi John, Yep, I'll be heading in the room in a few minutes to vacuum up a ton of dust and bits. It seems that contractors don't clean up hardly at all anymore! Thanks for the tip/reminder to prime the new taping
once that gets done. Unfortunately that room was carpedted already so I'm not sure if I'll EVER get all the dust out. We'll have it cleaned by the carpet pros once the room is ready to start benchwork.

Thanks for the offer to show me the gate your friend has. As soon as the dust settles around here, I'll make a real effort to take the ferry over to see you. Will walk on work or are you located quite a way's from down town? Hopefully I can bring the scale sketch by then as well.

Cheers, Capt. G.


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Posted by modelmaker51 on Saturday, June 21, 2008 12:34 PM

To be honest, I don't use anything, it lines up perfect everytime. I built the whole thing including a 6" approach on either side of the bridge out of a 1/2 a sheet of marine 3/4" plywood. I had to make some minor adjustments to the gaps after the first summer/winter cycle but nothing since then. I did make some wedges to hold it in place, but we never use them.

Once built, I laid the track through (glued down with Liquid nails) and secured the last 3 or 4 ties with nails and then cut the gaps. I filed the ends of the rails to a taper to avoid the wheels snagging the ends of the rails. We regularly pull 70 to 80 weighted car trains across both levels.

The really nice thing is that there's nothing to lift out and find a place to store it, I just pull it out and sove it down the isle out of the way.

Jay 

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Saturday, June 21, 2008 2:35 PM
Thanks for your reply. Sounds like you did it right the lst time. It's interesting to see how many people
use track soldered to screw head, dado joint bridge ends, etc. and how many others just line 'em up
and do ok way down the road.

Do we sometimes make this harder than it needs to be?
I know I'll feel paranoid enough about it to do the soldered screw heads thing and every other trick I
can fit in just so people will have to find something else to be able to say "I told you so" about :-)

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Sunday, June 22, 2008 12:51 PM
Something a little less scary (than the screws) may be to drive finishing nail next to ends of the rails and soldering them to the rail.

Jay 

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:55 PM
Is this less scary just because access is easier or less metal to heat up? Easier removal/all of the above?Thanks.

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:59 PM
I missread your comment about being paranoid, sorry. But to the point, the nails require a bit less precision, the srews under the rails have to be at a pricise height or you'll end up with a bump in the track. You can always bend the nail into the final position, (snug agaist the side of the rail). Howevr the screws would be less visible, pick your poison.

Jay 

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Sunday, June 22, 2008 8:33 PM
Thanks Jay. Makes perfect sense. I appreciate it.

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Posted by joe-daddy on Monday, June 23, 2008 10:50 PM

After diligently searching for duck unders and swing gates and lift outs, I found a lot of plans that were innovative, creative and looked really neat.  SO, I tried to build one.  What a disaster, it was on a curve and I wanted it to swing out. The geometry involved is not trivial, but hey, other guys did it so can I. 

I'll admit that I have failed miserably at two things building my railroad. 1st was the swinging gate , the second was hand laying track turnouts.  I'm bonafide proof that disproves the old saying that anyone can do it.  I couldn't, I spent a lot of money and even more time trying. 

Visiting a lot of different home railroads in my area, I see fellows with swing ups, drop ins and roll unders, but have yet to see a swing out. 

Joe Daddy

 

 

My website and blog are now at http://www.joe-daddy.com
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Posted by johncpo on Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:49 PM

With a 9'x12' room for HO, 1/35 scale armor and under-the layout storage the dilema of a second return loop of approx 40" radii became painfully real. I then found a solution in left over lumber. By incorporating a turn-table section that I used in the past I expanded the return loop section into a complete reverse-wired loop, independent of the remaining main line. The feeder tracks are separate as well and wired as such.

All wiring is to an "Atlas" Reversing circuit switch and the whole module is hinged to one wall of the room inside the door opening. I simply unhook the wiring, and swing the Draw Bridge as I call it up to the ceiling and hook into the loop screwed into the re-enforced part of a ceiling support. I have ample headroom to walk out of the doorway and both ends of the module are supported by heavy duty shelving brackets screwed into the wall and the end of the layout table. 

The entire module is framed using 1"x4" lumber to form a 40"x42" outer frame, the turntable section is lined up to match the center track off the main layout at the yard end. I have used 2" white insulating foam to fill in the gaps and support the weight of the trains, the foam was glued to the inside of the frame using Elmers woodworking glue which adhears to the foam with great strength.

I hope to have shed some light on the subject.

johncpo

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:55 AM
Thanks. Could you clarify a bit? Is this section a turntable/roundhouse section with a return loop under it and they are both raised together as one unit? Or is the lift up drawbridge to allow access to the return loop? Are the turntable and return loop the same circuit and that, is separated from the mainline?
Just a little confused,sorry...

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Yeah, a picture would be worth a couple of hundred words.

Jay 

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Posted by trainnut1250 on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:34 AM

You have probably seen this before, but here is another solution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guy

see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site

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Posted by johncpo on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:55 AM

 Sorry about that. The return loop and turntable are on the same module and the same level, the circuit for the return loop is separate from the two main feed lines and the main that goes into the turntable. The entire module swings up to be hooked to the ceiling. To facilitate track connections I layed out all of the tracks that lead onto the swing-up module. I then used a "Dremel" tool with a cut off wheel to make diagnal cuts across each track.

The turn table section of the module is centered allowing for a connecting main line track as a lead track onto the turn table. It was a bit confusing to me at first to wire the return loop but by using the Atlas "Reversing Control" I wired it according to directions and it works fine.

Best of luck

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Posted by Capt. Grimek on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 11:30 AM
Guy, that's a really nice swing gate! I hadn't seen it before, myself. Looks like it'll be a bridge and water way underneath? Looks sturdy or "skookum" as we say in the Pacific N.W.!

John, Thanks. That clarification helped me to visualize things much better. If you ever have a chance though, pics would be great. I know everyone doesn't have the experience/ability to post pics or want to
use a host site like "photbucket", etc. I know I don't at this point so I can't point any fingers!

Thanks for adding to this thread. I definitely am going to have a gate now that I've gotten together with my planning "guru" and we've adapted the plan a bit so every idea helps here. There will always be 'some' time where it'll be faster/"easier" to duck under.

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

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Posted by CSXDixieLine on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 2:35 PM
Hmmmm...Guy I think you have swung me (pun intended!) to the swing gate as you have implemented. I was planning a simple lift out, but the swing out seems a little more permanent and reliable. If I recall correctly, Gary Hoover had a nice swing gate on his previous MK&Q layout and there was a separate artice in MR about just the gate design and construction. Jamie
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Posted by johncpo on Thursday, June 26, 2008 1:55 PM

Capt.

 Just thought I would throw this in. Until last week I have been shooting with film in 35mm slide and prints with my Nikons and with 40 years of outdoor and some indoor photography I was limited to the ways of film. I now have a very nice Nikon D40 that my wife and I chose above all others as the lenses fit from the film cameras. So now I have a way to contribute my photos of my HO layouts and my 1/35 scale WWII armor and 1/48 aircraft to FSM as well.

 As you might guess my hobbies are varied and complete with great detail sharing techniques as crossing from 1/35 to 1/87 scale is just a matter of using different glasses to see through, as bi-focals have given away to tri-focals and the cameras have changed as well.

 Thanks for the reply however as I will be looking at either Photobucket or an alternative to posting on both sites.

The best hobbies are the ones you enjoy

johncpo

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