When do you carve the river?

[zeis96]

At what point in the layout building do you carve a river and when do you add the water?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

[selector]

I take it you are talking about carving out the river bed from foam?  If so, you should already have a clear idea of the footprint and layout of any adjacent trackage and structures and terrain.  Very clear.  Then you can mark the river course or water body and carve at your leisure...whenever it suits you.

Adding the water should be done after you have scenicked the surrounding terrain, except for trees and shrubs which are easily handled, and after you have shaped the river banks well and have painted anything you need to look natural and coloured, such as the ever-deepening water.

You shouldn't forget to ensure the open edges or gaps between layers are sealed before you pour a solution or compound to make water.  It will migrate and seep, and you'll waste what does that.  I used a putty that was powdered and to which I added water.  I spread it thinly over the river bed and up the banks a good ways, plus used it to seal between layers.  It was easily painted, after which I mixed the compound and poured the "water".

[zeis96]

Yes, I am using foam.

Thank you for your quick post.

[tomikawaTT]

My plan calls for not one, but several watercourses.  The planned sequence:

Design - from the git-go.  The location of each watercourse will be worked into the initial construction, accurate to a few millimeters.  Have to do it that way, to make sure the numerous bridges will be appropriate - including the temporary trestle under the operating pile driver.

Build - not exactly carve, since I use hard-shell construction and cookie-cut my subgrade.  There isn't any foam "tabletop."  The watercourses will go in, along with the rest of the general landforms, as soon as the trackwork has been thoroughly run-tested and certified operational.

Pour - at the interface between general landform development and close-up detailing.  In other words, after everything has been painted, sealed and otherwise prepared, but before adding underbrush, fence lines, roadside shrines and little people.

This is the plan.  Once I get there, reality may very well intrude on my dream world.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[jacon12]

At what point in the layout building do you carve a river and when do you add the water?

 

Thanks for your time.

 

 

I'd like to add a question to yours also, that may help you and me with the project.  Since I'm pondering the same question (I also plan a small pond or lake dug down into a two inch thick foam base),  I know that it is absolutely essential to have the bottom level and water tight... no leaks.  I've been wondering how to get the bottom level in the foam since it's very, very hard to carve out a level bottom to a hole in foam.  So.... should we carve out the hole and then insert a piece of styrene on the bottom to make the bottom level, then cover it with plaster or some other method up the banks to make it water proof?

Would that work?  Or is there a better way?

Jarrell 

[selector]

I don't think getting the lake bottom level is so critical that it should consume you....close is good enough.  Rather, sealing it and preparing it so that when watered the water looks deep and natural with colour changes, that is what you should concern yourself with.

I actually carved right down to the plywood, and then used the putty to provide a smooth and leak-proof vessel.  I then painted the dried putty.  So, I had a near-level surface already.  In your case, Jarrell, let the water sort itself out...it will have a level surface, and that is what really matters.  Now, when I say all this, I don't mean to leave deep gouges and one side of the "vessel" 1/2" deeper than the other...that would add cost to filling your vessel properly so that it looks good.  In that respect, fill the roughed out (wire brush?, then sanded) vessel with a thin liner of putty that can be itself sanded until it is close to level across its width and lenght.  Close, not perfect.  Fool around with the painting and figure out how to get nicely blended edges.  I didn't do so well on the first go-round.  You can paint over what doesn't work.

[gandydancer19]

One thing worth considering when modeling a lake, river, or stream, is not making it too deep, unless it is in a canyon out west. If you look at theses features in nature, there is not a lot of distance between the top of the water and the land around it. The exception is around a road or rail crossing, but these are usually build up somewhat where they are going to cross.

Also, after carving out the water feature from foam, you can use 60 grit sandpaper to smooth out the bottom some.

All scenery and bridges around the area should be done and installed befor adding the water material.

[HHPATH56]

 In addition to what has already been suggested, I would like to suggest a few ways to carve the river through 2 inch insulation. One way is to use a serrated kitchen carving knife. Carve at an angle down to the plywood base. roughen the edge with a wood rasp.  Another idea is to use a door lock hole cutter, on an electric drill.  This is messy, but effective. To seal the cracks and make it waterproof. I use Hydrocal plaster. Hydrocal accepts paint, but cannot be stained. Depending on the depth and current of the river, the color of the plastic water base will differ. For a shallow strean, where you see the bottom clearly, there is little difference in the brown bottom all the way across. The bottoms of any boulders are seen in shallow water. With deeper water, the center of the bottom is a darker blueish brown. Be sure to tape the end of the river where it ends at the aisle. On my own layout the rivers are in fairly deep ravines, with arched automobile bridges and wooden railroad trestles. My sawmill pond is constructed in a pullout drawer, with the mill complex behind built on a liftout. This enables one to reach "unreachable" trackage behind.  I happen to like "Magic Water" for my water. One can add ripples and white areas in waterfalls and rushing streams by applying WS "Water Effects". I highly recommend that you purchase any of the booklets dealing with "how tos" of water modeling    Bob Hahn 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mikelhh]

 It's important that before you pour, you add any fallen logs, boulders  etc that you might want in it, unless you plan to add them while the water is still wet. I've glued all of mine in place beforehand.

 I've used water putty and DAS clay to seal it all, and a coating of PVA glue over it all will help keep things watertight.

 

 Mike

[tgindy]

At what point in the layout building do you carve a river and when do you add the water?

Modeling water is pretty much one of the last scenery things to do.

David Popp has an 4-page installment, "You too, can model realistic rapids," in the current, July 2008 Model Railroader, about the proper application of modeling water.

This article does assume that you have already applied the first basic water layer(s) as "Pouring Water - Part One."

For example, somehow I have missed this trick in the past, using a "sticK" touching the side of the resin pouring container to apply the resin to an exact location in the stream.

This latter scenery stage of water rapids is a "Pouring Water - Part Deux," and; is what will add that something special you know is just there, even to the guest observer.

The construction approach for my new CR&T interurban traction layout, except for "the big city flatlands" will be more of a "building" like that described by tomikawaTT:

"Build - not exactly carve, since I use hard-shell construction and cookie-cut my subgrade.  There isn't any foam "tabletop."  The watercourses will go in, along with the rest of the general landforms, as soon as the trackwork has been thoroughly run-tested and certified operational."

This means the basic water modeling (part 1) must be well-planned in advance as described so well by many in this thread - so that application of mild flowing water effects (part 2) - are both among the last scenery steps.