This yard is an adaptation of Armstrong's flat classification yard. I have tweaked it to suit my needs and now I would like to see what all of you think. I'm not looking for opinions on if the trackage will fit or anything like that, I just want opinions on operation. Thanks in advance, BNSF76
Details: Using handlaid #5 turnouts on #4 ladder; overall yard size is approximately 2 by 45 feet. Crossover between drill ladders (in line with Class. track #5) is a double slip.
With all that length available, I don't see the need for #4 turnouts which have a switch radius of less than 18 inches. I'd go with a minimum of #5s (equalling 24" radius) where only freight cars and switch engines might tread. Otherwise, use a minimum of #6s (and #8s for cross-overs where passenger cars might tread) if you plan on having larger locomotives (steamers with 4-wheel trailing trucks, six-axle diesel/electrics.)
Mark
I think it looks nice. The only things that struck me were the placement of three crossovers.
I would move:
The reason for doing this is so a switcher can pull a longer cut of cars out of either end and be or get out of the way of a trains arriving or leaving the yard and reducing future gridlock.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Function-wise - It will work fine. The reality is that it may be 'over-designed'. Will you have so much traffic that you need two drill tracks(and that slip switch to divide the yard bowl into two yards)? As it sits right now, you can arrive/depart a road freight while two yard jobs are sorting cars. Since you want to 'hand lay' your track, there is a lot of work ahead of you.
The only other observation is the ise of #4/#5 turnouts - I would use nothing less than #6 turnouts for the cross-overs, ladder tracks, and engine service leads. The Car Shop leads could have sharper #4 turnouts.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
rolleiman wrote:Other than the turntable, I'm not seeing any steam facilities on your plan. Are you planning to use steam engines that will need to be turned? I ask, because, the second thing a lot of railroads did away with after steam engines, were the turntables.
Actually, they usually tore out ash pits, coaling towers, water towers, and things like that, though some of them are still aound to be seen today. Many turntables, however, are still in use today. There are tons of them out there right now. Take a look at one of the satellite programs and see for yourself. There are a half dozen still in use in New York City this very morning. Did a lot get torn out, yes. But the idea that they are all but gone is simply false. There's at least one in most major cities across the U.S. right now. Now if you want to talk about something that is not seen often in the U.S., lets talk transfer tables.
Thank you all for your comments so far.
As far as modeling a hump yard, I've heard of too many problems getting them to work correctly, and I just don't want to bother with it; would be pretty cool though.
I may have been confusing in my original post. I have no intent of using #4 t/o. I am however putting the #5s on the ladder at a #4 angle, to reduce the length of the ladder. Using #4s puts ladder length at about 6 ft, #5d are about 7 and a half ft. Also, I won't be running passenger trains through the yard, but I have tested them on my turnouts, and they had no problems. Same goes for the 6 axle diesels (not running steam either); they run flawlessly on the handlaid #5s. I'll admit that I wanted to keep a minimum t/o of #6, but I had to compromise in the interest of classification track lengths.
I am very much aware that most turntables are gone, but I refuse to give in. Consider it modeler's license.
As far as the bottlenecking is concerned, you are right. So far my only thought is to allow some trains to bypass the yard and go directly to staging (which is about 6 feet past the drill tracks.)
Thanks again and keep it coming.
BNSF76
That is an awsome yard. I wish I had that much space on my layout for a yard!!!
-tim
I agree that with a yard of this size, long leads and drill tracks will be a must.The stroage/ classification tracks should be much longer. I don't know just how much room you have to the right (turntable/ diesel facility), but in a relatively short time you will wish those tracks were designed much longer.
I believe you can streamline the plan as already noted by others. Those caboose tracks are in a bad spot taking up some valuable real estate for the ladder. They would be better run outwards by the car shop. Pick up of the caboose seems very awkward, especially from a train departing to the right of the yard.
If you do have the space it may work to have the yard separated with leads/ drill and caboose tracks at either end.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
The main issue will be places to build trains and recieve inbound cars. Assume you will be using at least one or two additional class tracks for this purpose. If you use main 2 as a A/D track you have no crossover shown that will allow a train traveling left to right to use it as a set out track or to get around a cut that was previously set out. As complicated as the yard is, it will be a bottleneck on the main line.
Rather than dual leads on one end, why not single leads on both ends? That is more flexible. With dual leads you have to dedicate a track for cars going to the other lead. Lets say you have a cut on Drill 1 (serving tracks 1-4) with a car for a block in track 6. Drill one would have to interrupt Drill 2's work to switch the car or will have to put the car someplace else and then hand the car over to Drill 2 to switch later.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
pcarrell wrote: rolleiman wrote:Other than the turntable, I'm not seeing any steam facilities on your plan. Are you planning to use steam engines that will need to be turned? I ask, because, the second thing a lot of railroads did away with after steam engines, were the turntables. Actually, they usually tore out ash pits, coaling towers, water towers, and things like that, though some of them are still aound to be seen today. Many turntables, however, are still in use today. There are tons of them out there right now. Take a look at one of the satellite programs and see for yourself. There are a half dozen still in use in New York City this very morning. Did a lot get torn out, yes. But the idea that they are all but gone is simply false. There's at least one in most major cities across the U.S. right now. Now if you want to talk about something that is not seen often in the U.S., lets talk transfer tables.
Didn't mean to imply that they were all gone. I wish the two that are in the area I'm modeling still stood and were in use. They were both gone by 1955 or 1956. On the plan, I'm just questioning the true need for one as if not needed, they are space eaters. I guess on a 45 foot long yard though, that's kind of irrelevant.
Some clarifications and explanations:
This diagram is not to scale; in fact, I drew it in MS Excel, not in a CAD program. The diagram's sole purpose is to show the arrangement of tracks, not the length of them. If it was to scale, it would be difficult to view in this forum. If I remember correctly, the longest yard track is about 17 ft and the drill tracks will be long enough to pull from this track. Also, I forgot that I had to pull a few feet of the yard out due to the position of my helix, so the yard will only be about 40 ft (my longest wall is just over 44 ft) instead of the 45 ft previously stated.
Originally, only half of the yard was double ended; I made it double ended for the flexibility (at the expense of yard track length.) This way it can be worked from the left if needed by making use of the main line. I don't want a dedicated drill track on the left because it would extend too far along the main line.
WP3020 mentioned moving some crossovers. I can't move the crossover between the drill tracks because it poses some geometry problems (BTW, this yard is being built on 8 ft modules in case I ever move. Can't place t/o too close to module ends.) As far as the "crossover" on the left (main to #4), originally I envisioned running incoming trains directly into the class tracks from the left. The spur acts as a pocket for a switcher while a consist entering from the right breaks off and uses the bypass to go to the engine terminal.
I will look into moving the caboose tracks to gain some additional yard track length.
Hey about tunrtables. Nahant Yd Davenport Iowa still has one working to this day on the IC&E.So you can still have one just make sure to have some HO sacle Railfans taking pictures of it .
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train
rolleiman wrote: Didn't mean to imply that they were all gone. I wish the two that are in the area I'm modeling still stood and were in use. They were both gone by 1955 or 1956. On the plan, I'm just questioning the true need for one as if not needed, they are space eaters. I guess on a 45 foot long yard though, that's kind of irrelevant.
Here is a circa 2004 turntable that doesn't take up much space. It is located in Olympia, Greece at the end of the line. The town is served by doodlebug. The turntable shows little evidence of being used recently, however.
I thought my 25 foot yard was a monster. Yours will dwarf mine. I wanted a big yard because I wanted the option of making up and breaking up long trains and my A/D track can handle 25 feet of train although from a practical standpoint, 25 car trains are about as long as the trackwork on the rest of the railroad can handle, so the size of the yard might be a little over the top. I don't know what your over layout space is but do you really want to devote 45' of space to just the yard. Will you actually be able to reliably run trains of that length over the rest of your layout. Will the yard overwhelm the rest of your layout. If I had mine to redo, I MIGHT cut about 5' off the length. I certainly would not have gone any bigger even if I had the space to do so.
I too would question the choice of #4 turnouts. with that much length to work with, I would sacrifice some yard capacity for longer turnouts. I use #6 in my yard and have 11 classification tracks, more than you have width for. If you are going to run long trains, #4 might prove to be problematic. I'd go with at least #5 and #6 would be even better.
To touch on a few things that I've seen brought up in the thread, and this is coming purely from experience working in the 1:1 scale..
A 45 yard will not fit 45 foot long trains. At most, you may be able to run 20 foot long trains "comfortably", but that will still leave you with lots of switching, making room, and finding room to organize everything.
Also remember, that you don't want to fill up your storage/classification tracks 100%. "Why?", might you ask? If all your tracks are filled up to capacity, you have no room to yard trains. So, how do you prevent congestion?
In your typical operating session, figure out how many trains you will run into and out of the yard. Figure out an average amount of cars that will go in each (ignoring outliers that will grossly throw off the average). Now, calculate how many cars you can store on all of your storage tracks. Take the number of trains and multiply it by the average size. This is how many cars will move in and out of the yard in a "standard" session. Subtract this number from your total amount of storage space. Now take what's left and and subtract the number of car lengths of your drill track(s). You'll soon see you're going to run out of space.
Moral of the story? Don't fill up more then 50% of your yard. Otherwise, you're screwed.
Edit:
ALSO! With such a long space, you have the perfect candidate for a hump yard! Even a double ended "bowl" if you so chose. Have you explored this opportunity yet?
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The design looks good. I'd try to get rid of that double slip. It's hard to make 'em work reliably and it's hard to look at 'em an see the route they're set for. The caboose tracks are only accessible from drill track #2. Someone else suggested a drill track on the left end of the yard. I'd second this motion (even if it means having the drill paralleling the main.
I'd suggest having the switch crew at one end do raw classification, that is sort cars by their next stop or destination onto tracks containing other cars headed likewise. Then use the switch crew on the other end to trim - either sort the order of cars on the tracks or pull blocks of cars from the class tracks and build trains out of them.
How will the switch crews handle an arriving train that will terminate and get classified? This includes getting motive power to the service area and getting cabooses to the caboose track. Will cabooses be assigned first come, first serve to the next train needing a caboose or will cabooses be assigned to conductors requiring the correct caboose to be placed on a train?
How will the switch crews deal with a train stopping for a block swap? Where will the inbound cars be stashed to get 'em out of the way while the outbound cars get stuck in the consist?
Will a helper operation be run out of this yard?
Have you yet worked out how the yard will be operated? How many trains will be created, broken down, swap a block, or just pass through during a session? How many destinations will you be classifying for? If you have 1 destination per class track that makes the YMs job easy (in fact too easy!) but unless each destination is high traffic and will need an entire class track this would be overkill (or over tracking - and track costs money). Have you worked out the traffic plan for your railroad so you can see whether this yard is too big, too small, or about right? Can your railroad deliver enough cars to this yard to keep the crews there busy? How does the frequency of trains (arrive,depart,just visiting) compare with the time it takes the yard dudes to build or break down a train?
Are the aisles in front of this yard generous enough to accomodate a YM and a switch crew? What about two switch crews? What about two crews plus a motive power hostler? What about a full yard crew plus two road crews of trains meeting at the yard (that rat bas***d DS should know better!) plus (since you mentioned a helix I'm guessing this is a double deckder) a train crew passing by on the upper deck plus crews of trains operating on the other side of the aisle from the yard? 36" wides aisles are an absolute minimum. 48" wouldn't be a bad idea...
Will you operate where a freight agent takes orders from customers for empty cars and the YM is then tasked with providing an empty car to that customer getting it on the right train forthat customer? If so, will there be an empty car storage area in the yard?
You mentioned wanting to build in 8' sections for movability and used that as a reason for locating some turnouts in potentially sub-optimal. With a helix it doesn't sound like you'll be taking this monster to shows or modular meets. If that's the case then go ahead and put the turnouts where ever they're needed. If you do have to move you may need to remove/replace a turnout or two but that's small potatos compared with rebuilding an entire yard of this size.
All in all though, it looks like a thoughtfully designed place to bang cars. Did you happen to spend much time in "The 10 Commandments of Yard Design" over on the Layout Design Special Interest Group Primer?
Regards,
Charlie Comstock