Ok, so i have a bunch of the BK Enterprises frog/point assemblies, and I just got a package of ME weathered turnout ties. I've got a couple questions.
1) can I build the turnout at my workbench without any roadbed underneith it? I use ME's micro spikes, and will most likely use their small spikes around the frog and outside of the stock rails by the points. Can I spike the ties without having to have some cork or lauan underneith?
2) how hard is it to spike into lauan? My g/f's grandfather gave me a sample of it that i'm going to use if i have to have some form of roadbed under the ties when I build the turnout
3) can I just use my exacto knife to trim the ties to length?
4) i've got the CV turnout diagram/templates that Jack sent me when he sent me some samples of the tie-strips. i put the frog/point assembly over the paper template, and everything lined up fine. Can I use this tie-spacing for building my turnout, or should I find another one?
5) with these BK Enterprise point/frog assemblies, I'm assuming I'll have to notch the stock rails, correct?
I think that covers everything.... thanks a lot guys. Its all your fault I'm addicted to spiking rail now....
1) Do the spikes go all the way through the ties? If yes, you need roadbed underneath. If no, you might be able to get away without it. I would be concerned carrying the turnout without roadbed, but I've never built at the bench before to know. Always built on site on the layout.
2) Luaun plywood is generally soft enough to spike into if the spikes don't hit a glue layer, as is most soft wood. However, you will occasionally hit hard spots in the grain which will curl spikes. Don't ask me how I know this, or the language I used at the 10th curled spike. I recommend Homasote for roadbed. Home Deport sells 10ft long, 3.5" wide strips for concrete forms if you don't want to deal with sheets. I don't like cork as a roadbed. The rubbery feel when a spike goes into cork gives me a feeling I'm not controlling the final angle and set of the spike. And cork has always dried out and crumbled on me after about 8-10 years.
3) Sure. It's easier if you have a pattern of what length ties to use where in the turnout. Prototype ties increased their length in increments of 6", IIRC.
4) If it lines up, what are you worried about?
5) You can also shape the points so that the stock rails don't need to be notched - the base of the points needs to be removed where it will interfere with the base of the stock rail. Personally, I prefer to avoid the notches - but that's me. Plenty of folks do notch the stock rails. The important point is that the points fit very close against the stock rail so that wheels cannot "pick" the points.
here's to your 1st successful handlaid turnout...
Fred W
DeadheadGreg wrote: Ok, so i have a bunch of the BK Enterprises frog/point assemblies, and I just got a package of ME weathered turnout ties. I've got a couple questions.
Howdy, Greg. As a long-time hand-assembler, I'll try to give you my thoughts - in order:
Several possibilities:
I don't like spiking into plywood, but that's me. Try a few test spikes and go from there.
Just make sure you are using a SHARP #11 or chisel-point blade.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I'd suggest making a handful of copies and protecting the original.
If the point sides are flat, you will have to make a matching flat spot on the stock rail. I personally undercut my hand-filed non-kit points, but that's a bit more complex and can raise issues with hinging the throwbar. (FWIW, prototype stock rails aren't notched - but prototype points are rather complex shapes, not fabricated on-site from raw rail.)
I'm sure more questions will occur to you. Don't hesitate to ask.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
DeadheadGreg wrote: 1) can I build the turnout at my workbench without any roadbed underneith it?
Yes but I wouldn't spike it into the ties. The two ways I build switches on the workbench are:
2) how hard is it to spike into lauan?
Sure. I glue a paper template of the switch in place and then glue the ties to that, lining them up with the staggered side of the switch. Then I put a straight edge along the straight side of the switch and cut them even.
I almost always use a photocopy of a switch diagram under my switches to assit in aligning the parts and spacing ties.
Can't help you there. I always notch the base, but NOT the head of the stock rails.
Another tack is to build the benchwork sections on the bench. that way you lay them in place, just bring the "place" to the workbench (sorta) I have my new yard in sections that are either 18 or 30" wide and 2-6 feet long. i set each section up on some saw horses and then start laying track. i can work from either side or end, whatever works easiest.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote: DeadheadGreg wrote: 1) can I build the turnout at my workbench without any roadbed underneith it? Yes but I wouldn't spike it into the ties. The two ways I build switches on the workbench are:Use PC board ties to assemble the turonut and then spike it to regular ties on the layout. this is basically the same idea as Fast Tracks only when I don't use the jigs to build the turnouts. I built dozens of switches this way 20 years ago for the original HSME layout in Manvel, TX.Build the switch on a board or homasote without any ties, then solder thin strips of tin or brass across the tops of the rails, then unspike the switch. Carry it over to the layout, spike it back down and unsolder the strips. Several of the switches at the Schuylkill Valley Model RR club in Phoenixville, PA were built this way.
I have used no.1 above and found it reliable and fairly easy.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Wow, thanks for all the replies. I really like the card-stock idea a lot. What I think I'll end up doing is making big sections of track at a time, because I'd like to be able do what Tony Koester did when making his Coal Fork branch: no joints near points. basically having a continuous stock rail throughout the entire ladder; I would only need to gap the frog rails anyway, and this would make things a lot easier to build.
but boy do I really like that cardstock idea. I was thinking of doing cardboard, but cardstock is a lot studier and easier to deal with, I would assume.
I just bought a bunch of ME's weathered ties and some code 70 rail, because I want to build a little mine diorama/module that I can eventually incorporate into a layout. This way I can just build the whole track arrangement as one solid unit. although I might not want to get too big, because it wouldn't be sturdy.... unless i did it on gator board or something. hmmm.... unless i used some popsicle sticks to brace the cardstock.
either way I'm just going to build one turnout first anyway so I can get my wooden tie skills down. I already laid a few strips of the CV tiestrips; those were easy! haha.
Oh!!! more questions:
1) will an NMRA guage give me the correct location of the rail on the tie? as in, how far from the edge of the tie should a rail be placed so that the whole unit is centered
2) If I use my NMRA guage at every tie, or every... 3 ties, will I be fine? Or will i still need to get a 3-point-er? I plan on getting either a 3-point guage and/or the Railway Engineering rollee guages, but i was just at my LHS and they didn't have any code 70 guages (i bought their two code 55 guages... hehe) If only the BK turnouts were code 55, because I ahve a bundle of ME code 55 flex i could just strip... oh well.
3) I realize that prototypical turnouts aren't notched. These BK point/frog assemblies have the points connected to each other ala Shinohara turnouts (although not as obnoxiously obvious). Do you still think I could file the outsides away so that I wouldn't have to notch them? A few of them also have some sort of styrene-type thing attached with a little screw to act as a throwbar. Should I replace this? It doesn't appear to be the sturdiest thing in the world, but I think it would suffice.
What Ive thought about doing is cutting them free so that I can solder them to a PC tie, but I dont have any pc ties and I haven't practiced my soldering skills yet (haven't soldered anything since... digital electronics in 11th grade?) This would be more prototypical, but I'm not sure that my skills and necessity for such a thing are quite there yet...
anyway, I plan on getting started tomarrow on one. Hopefully in a little under an hour I can have the whole thing built minus guard rails (i'm getting mine from Details West. Soo beautiful!) I'll have picture updates, because I want EVERYBODY to start handlaying their own track, because it REALLY is easy! And with the Central Valley tie-strips... i mean come on. they do the hard part for you.
alright i'm done
DeadheadGreg wrote:Oh!!! more questions: 1) will an NMRA guage give me the correct location of the rail on the tie? as in, how far from the edge of the tie should a rail be placed so that the whole unit is centered
None of the gauges I'm familiar with center the rails on the ties. When I lay out the track on the roadbed in pencil, I don't bother with centerlines any more. I just put where the rails are going to go. Ties are glued on top using a home-made piano key jig for spacing. Lateral spacing is done by eye, using the rail lines as a guide for centering.
I pre-stain my wood ties. Add ballast while the glue for the ties is still wet. Next day, come back and sand the tops of the ties level (very important to me) using fine sandpaper attached to an 8" block of 1x2 with rounded ends. The tie tops are level when the stain is being sanded on all ties. Then vacuum and restain. You are now ready for spiking rail. I also pre-paint the rail before spiking.
You need 2-3 3 point or rollee gauges. 2-3 gauges need to sit on the rail head, holding it in place while you spike. Check the 3 point gauges with your NMRA gauge - I've bought some that were half a railhead width out of wack. The 3 point style gauges provide gauge widening on the curves (2 slots go on the outer rail). Gauge widening is only needed when you are trying to run sharp curves (18-20" radius or less in HO) or large equipment on moderate curves.
There might not be enough difference in the rail head width between the code 70 and code 55 rail you are using - gauges might easily fit both. Check - and remember rail head width varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Atlas code 83 rail has a wider head than most other brands.
3) I realize that prototypical turnouts aren't notched. These BK point/frog assemblies have the points connected to each other ala Shinohara turnouts (although not as obnoxiously obvious). Do you still think I could file the outsides away so that I wouldn't have to notch them? A few of them also have some sort of styrene-type thing attached with a little screw to act as a throwbar. Should I replace this? It doesn't appear to be the sturdiest thing in the world, but I think it would suffice. What Ive thought about doing is cutting them free so that I can solder them to a PC tie, but I dont have any pc ties and I haven't practiced my soldering skills yet (haven't soldered anything since... digital electronics in 11th grade?) This would be more prototypical, but I'm not sure that my skills and necessity for such a thing are quite there yet...
It would probably be difficult to file the points to avoid notching all together without totally taking them apart. Biggest part is to undercut the point rail base on the outside, but that may destroy your point-throwbar attachment. If you can solder digital circuits, you can solder rail points to a PC board tie for a throwbar. Some folks strengthen the joint by adding a piece of shim brass on top of the throwbar butting against the inside of the point.
Using the PC tie throwbar enables separating the points electrically by gapping the foil between the points. Each point (near the hinge or flex point, please) is then wired to the adjacent stock rail or power bus. With the open point now the same polarity as the stock rail, you can reduce the point throw to more realistic dimensions because there are no shorts with the back of wheels rubbing the open point.
Having points same polarity as stock rails also forces you to gap the closure rails, and feed frog power separately through a contact - also a good thing IMHO. See Proto87 Stores diagrams on turnout wiring for more info.
anyway, I plan on getting started tomarrow on one. Hopefully in a little under an hour I can have the whole thing built minus guard rails (i'm getting mine from Details West. Soo beautiful!) I'll have picture updates, because I want EVERYBODY to start handlaying their own track, because it REALLY is easy! And with the Central Valley tie-strips... i mean come on. they do the hard part for you. alright i'm done
Hey thanks for the answers to my questions; i know there were a lot, haha. I've got the ties down and glued. I found a piece of rectangular plywood (?) thats the exact same height as my cork turnout roadbed pads. it probably is lauan, but i don't know. won't have any time tomarrow to get any work done on it, but i'll have pictures to show. most likely tuesday I'll have some time to start spiking.
i do have another question though: I have the frog/point assembly, but the plain rail that I had bought turned out to be code 83 even though the plastic wrapper bag thing that the pieces were in at the store was labeled code 70 w/ a sharpie. So, do you think i would be able to spike down the frog/point assembly first without the stock rails being in place? Or is it better to start with them anyway, even if you aren't building your own points and frog, ala Tony Koester's method that was in Trackwork and Lineside Details? thanks
I will assume that you are going to get the same size rail for the whole turnout. Having different size rails will probably mess it up.
I like to lay the straight(er) stock rail first. Since I build over templates 95% of the time, I then position the frog and lay the other stock rail gauged off the frog.
But there are many ways to do it.
Yeah of course I'm going to use the same size rail; its just annoying cuz I need to make another trip up to the LHS, and that means I'll probably spend more money that I don't really want to spend just yet, lol. Unless anyone here has some plain Code 70 rail that they would want to trade for some plain code 83! I've got about... 8 or 9 pieces of ME flex left, but I'd rather not strip another piece of that, because its expensive. Andy sells foot-long pieces of rail, though, at his Proto87 store so I guess I'll do that, and maaaaybe strip just one more piece... bah.
How do you guys go about centering the rail on the ties? I'm thinking of just holding a piece of flex up against it and then mark the proper rail positions, but will the NMRA guage help? As in, is the guage itself as wide as the ties, and then you can see where the rails shoudl be located on the ties with its track/flangeway guages?