Ideas for a 4x8 layout set in 1890/1900s with logging operations?

[perstuen]

I am a Norwegian working on a HO layout where I am trying to depict the early era of logging (1890/1900) in the US. I have done extensive travelling in the US and got very inspired by the landscapes as well as having great interest in US history relating to the opening of the west and the era of the pioneers (after all many of my ancestors settled in the US in the early 1900 and I am very fortunate to still have good connections with my relatives in this fantastic country.).

Anyway this is my idea for a layout:

The idea is to centre it around the needs of an isolated small town in a valley surrounded by mountains and forest. The town will have much of the appearance and features of the early mining towns of the Rockies. The basis supporting the existence of the small town is a lumber operation in the hills surrounding the town and a shipping point of livestock. Hence, a stock pen and storage areas for receiving trains from the small saw mill up in the hills will be necessary at the station. I will try to build interesting scenery consisting of a main line looping around the 4x8 layout, crossing bridges and tunnels, with sidings at the station for water and coal/wood as well as sidings for timber and livestock and of course the few passengers that for some reason will be travelling to this isolated town. From the loop it will have a turnout or a wye for the siding going up to the sawmill.

If anybody wants to contribute with track plan ideas for the layout, the sawmill area or the station it is very much appreciated. Also any additional ideas or thoughts are welcomed. I know that this forum collectively constitutes an extreme amount of knowledge and fantasy so feel free to contribute with your point of view!

I have a rough draft of a track plan and maybe I will scan it and post it here at a later stage.

Rgds,

Bjarne

[SpaceMouse]

Hi,

Welcome to the forum.

Why not start by posting what you have. I have built a 1800's 4 x 8 layout and researched logging operations and I cannot imagine getting all you want in that space. If you post it, though maybe we can help you refine it.

Here are a bunch of 4 x 8 layouts guys here have designed.

http://www.chipengelmann.com/Trains/4x8Contest.html

But the 4 x 8 is a very limiting format. In the same space that you take up with a 4 x 8 and the room you need to walk around it, you can have a much better layout. 

http://www.chipengelmann.com/Trains/10x12Contest.html

But post what you have and we can take it from there.  

 

[DeadheadGreg]

Dude, you NEED to get or find a copy of the August 1998 Model Railroader.  In it, they have an article about a 4x8 HO logging railroad called the Lilliput Logger.  Its a genius of a 4x8 layout, with the most operational potential and scenic interest of any 4x8 that i've ever seen.  Its got a full mainlne AND a full branch line, and is designed to be incorporated into a larger layout. 

This track plan actually was the inspiration for the 4x8 layout that i'm building now thats going to be incorporated into a larger layout in the future. 

[ChrisNH]

I recently saw a design based on a real prototype where the cars entered the logging railroad via car float. I wish I could remember where I saw it.. probably some back issue of MRR. It was a Canadian prototype I think.

Just as, perhaps, some inspiration, this small logging railroad is one of my favorites:

http://simonet.club.fr/Poss_us.htm

I think an interesting design would have an oval where the back half was hidden staging serving as a "mainline" that interchanges with a loggin railroad which climbs a grade and has its facilities above where the mainline staging would be. 

If you have access to the track plan database, I found a few interesting examples by searching for "logging". 

Chris 

 

[Geared Steam]

[Wisconsin Railfan]

Dude, you NEED to get or find a copy of the August 1998 Model Railroader.  In it, they have an article about a 4x8 HO logging railroad called the Lilliput Logger.  Its a genius of a 4x8 layout, with the most operational potential and scenic interest of any 4x8 that i've ever seen.  Its got a full mainlne AND a full branch line, and is designed to be incorporated into a larger layout. 

This track plan actually was the inspiration for the 4x8 layout that i'm building now thats going to be incorporated into a larger layout in the future. 

Looks like you can still get a copy http://www.modelrailroader.com/MRR/default.aspx?c=i&id=2&iid=93 

[Geared Steam]

 

[tomikawaTT]

TIME OUT!

Before you charge merrily into looking at how other modelers (many of whom never saw a live Shay in action) modeled a 1900 (give or take) woods show, do some research on what the prototype did!

First thing that jumped out and bit me was, "Small sawmill in the woods."  In my experience, the sawmill was at the place where the logs coming down the timber road met the common carrier rails - Cass in WV, Standard and Tuolumne in CA, even Agematsu, Nagano-ken, Japan.  Logs cut near the southwestern border of Yosemite National Park took a fifty-plus mile ride in a water-filled flume to the mill at Merced - the closest place with a Class 1 connection.  Reason?  Sawmills were built with heavy machinery - not the kind of thing you want to carry on a lightly-built, rough rail line that, in later years, was hard-pressed to carry large, rubber-tired log trucks.

Also, cattle and logging are rather poor neighbors.  Most of the 'cattle' in the old logging camps were oxen - the teams that helped drag logs to reloads in the woods.  Loggers would probably EAT any range cows that wandered into camp.

Just a couple of things to think about.

Chuck (modeling the Cedar Forest of Central Japan in September, 1964)

[Oakhurst Railroad Engineer]

My layout - Oakhurst Railroad - is set in the Sierras of California in the 1920's.  Take a look at some pictures of may layout:

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/mkbradley_photos/?mediafilter=images

My layout is bigger than 4 x 8 (about 8 ft x 11 ft and two levels with a helix), but it might give you some ideas! 

[perstuen]

Thank you all very much for helpful hints and inspiration. Especially this link  http://simonet.club.fr/Poss_us.htm, supplied by ChrisNH as well as fine trackplans by Spacemouse are great inspiration and guidance.

Also, Kalmbach has published to books, Logging railroads 1 and 2, that are packed with information. I have bought them and highly recommend them. It even feature a 4x8 layout.

I notice that some of you question that the size of the layout will take a sawmill or lumber operation. My intention was to have a side spur in to this little sawmill from Woodland Scenics http://www.hobbylinc.com/prods/u_woo.htm. Nothing bigger actually. I think I can fit that into may layout since I only intend to have a small village beside the station area. I have allready bought one kit from http://www.wildwestmodels.com/Products.html. They have some nice high quality kits with really small footprint. 

I hope that other readers enjoy this thread and also find it usefull.

[perstuen]

Fantasic layout you got there! Thank you very much for sharing your pictures.

[perstuen]

The post above was in gratitude to Oakhurst Railroad Ing for his picture, I just hit the wrong post button...

[perstuen]

Dude, you NEED to get or find a copy of the August 1998 Model Railroader.  In it, they have an article about a 4x8 HO logging railroad called the Lilliput Logger.  Its a genius of a 4x8 layout, with the most operational potential and scenic interest of any 4x8 that i've ever seen.  Its got a full mainlne AND a full branch line, and is designed to be incorporated into a larger layout. 

This track plan actually was the inspiration for the 4x8 layout that i'm building now thats going to be incorporated into a larger layout in the future. 

Looks like you can still get a copy http://www.modelrailroader.com/MRR/default.aspx?c=i&id=2&iid=93 

Here are some links relating to the "Lilliput Logger":

http://www.all-model-railroading.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8089

http://www.polyweb.com/dans_rr/blog/index.php/archives/date/2006/10

(see middle of page)

Also the original Lilliput Logger track plan is available for MR subscribers in their free download library of track plans.

I think this briliant track plan allowing point-to-point as well as looping operations evidence that it is actually possible to do a logging layout within the limits of 4x8 feet.

However, if you emphasize realistic scenery it might be a bit disturbing to have tracks running back and fourth and crossing above and under all over the place. Personally I will probably go for a solution with less tracks.

 

[ChrisNH]

I found a reference to the layout plan I was thinking of as well as a website of someone who is building it:

 

Kootenay Lake and Navigation Co.

 

Chris 

[fwright]

Dude, you NEED to get or find a copy of the August 1998 Model Railroader.  In it, they have an article about a 4x8 HO logging railroad called the Lilliput Logger.  Its a genius of a 4x8 layout, with the most operational potential and scenic interest of any 4x8 that i've ever seen.  Its got a full mainlne AND a full branch line, and is designed to be incorporated into a larger layout. 

This track plan actually was the inspiration for the 4x8 layout that i'm building now thats going to be incorporated into a larger layout in the future. 

Looks like you can still get a copy http://www.modelrailroader.com/MRR/default.aspx?c=i&id=2&iid=93 

Here are some links relating to the "Lilliput Logger":

http://www.all-model-railroading.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8089

http://www.polyweb.com/dans_rr/blog/index.php/archives/date/2006/10

(see middle of page)

Also the original Lilliput Logger track plan is available for MR subscribers in their free download library of track plans.

I think this briliant track plan allowing point-to-point as well as looping operations evidence that it is actually possible to do a logging layout within the limits of 4x8 feet.

However, if you emphasize realistic scenery it might be a bit disturbing to have tracks running back and fourth and crossing above and under all over the place. Personally I will probably go for a solution with less tracks. 

The Lilliput Logger is a nice plan; I have studied it on many occasions for ideas.  But:

- it can't be built as drawn in the space shown.  If you use 18" radius curves, you will need more than 4ft width.  Take a ruler and measure across the curves, and you will find some of them are less than 36" diameter.  The plan works nicely in a 5x8 space.

- in the top right corner there are vertical/horizontal clearance problems between the branch line and main oval.  Expanding the width is one solution to the problem.

- some of the spurs (the mine in particular) have a turnout located on a fairly steep grade.  This means you cannot leave any part of the train standing while you switch the spur.  There are solutions such as brush bristles and retractable pins to hold axles.

Again, it's one of my favorite plans.  But the attempts I have seen at actually building a copy have had to make fairly major revisions.

just my thoughts and experiences; yours may differ.

Fred W 

[dehusman]

While You have said that you are looking at a Rockies logging operation, one thing you might want to consider is including aspects from eastern (as in Pennsylvania, Virginia, New York) logging operations.

They had the same board mills, but since most of it was hardwood, they had a whole range of other commodites involved.  Timber was rough cut for mine props, smaller pieces were cut for wood lathe, even smaller branches were turned for spindles, spools and clothespins.  Stumps and scrap wood was cooked to make turpentine.  Bark was sent to tanneries.  So don't forget those other types of mills and loads.

Dave H.

[boatman909]

HI,

I have taken up the hobby again after a 30 year hiatus. I used to have small (5' * 3') HO layout based on a German theme - having lived in Germany in my youth) but am now into the US scene - steam ,logging, 50's. So much has changed since I was last involved with the hobby, and there is just so much out there it's almost overwhelming. Still I'm having fun.

I too have been building a version of the Lilliput Logger - following the original design fairly closely. I am using Peco turnouts and a mixture of Atlas set track and ME flex track. The basic layout is built on a 1" * 2" framework, covered with masonite, on top of L-girders on legs then 3.5" pink foam as a base. I then tried out various methods of scenery construction (carved polystyrene blocks, cardboard web with plaster cloth and hot-wire carved stacked foam). I am using Dave Frary's approach to landscape the scenery, using WS products.

I started it about 7 months ago, and I have now completed about 90% of the scenery, and am now about to start building the Logging Camp buildings. I'm going to use the JV Models Boyd Logging Camp as the basis for this. I also want to put a spar tree on the upper level and replace my kit built sawmill (Vollmer) - doesn't seem to fit, too modern.

I have Bachmann 3-truck Shay and I have fitted DCC to it (I've  just received another 3-truck Shay, along with a 4-4-0 American and a 2-6-0 Baldwin - now I just have install some decoders - there's not much room!) . I also have a Roundhouse RTR 2-truck Shay which needs some work (it seems to suffer the same problem all the RTR versions did - the axel gears split and slip). I have installed an MRC Prodigy Advance system to control everything - my first foray into DCC. I would love to try out sound - but am concerned about the cost and the very limited amount of room available in all the Bachmann locos, especially for a speaker.

I want to create little interesting scenes around the layout; workers on the dock, fishermen, swimmers and sunbathers on the beach, etc. - you all know the stuff I'm talking about - still need some inspiration here.

As noted by above, the original track plan needs some mods - I ended up with a 15" radius on the start of the line up to the mine, but as this is mostly inside a tunnel it does not really seem like that. The rest is 18" radius.  It means that the Port area is only about 15 " wide, but you can get most of the original track plan in. I had to use 4% inclines on the line all the way to the logging camp, but this allowed me to make the area around the mine level.

Anyway, I have posted some pics on the state of things as they were a few months ago;
My Lilliput Logger
(Let me know if you cannot see these - I am new to photobucket..)

Here is a panoramic pic of one side of the layout..




John
----------------------
Steaming into the future

[Anonymous]

First off, welcome to the world of period railroading. You'll find it's an interesting area, with a lot of great modelers who are also a very helpful bunch.
Since you seem to be getting a lot of good advice on layouts, I'll try to throw something else into the conversation.
First off, which section of the country did your people settle in? Unless it was the relatively treeless high plains or desert, chances are that there was a local logging industry. You might try contacting state and local historical societies which will usually be a good soucre of information. Many of them have outstanding photo collections.
As was mentioned above, many areas of the US had extensive logging operations, not just the western part of the country. The SW Missouri Ozarks where I live had one of the largest, if not the largest timber industries in the US at the time you are thinking about modeling. The Missouri Department of Conservation has an excellent video tape on the subject.
Yes, there were a lot of small mills in the woods. These were usually pretty simple, a rip and cut off saw and not much else. Power was provided by a small "donkey" steam engine which was designed to be skidded behind an ox or horse team. Power was tramited to the saws thru a central jackshaft and belts. Power might also be supplied by a steam traction engine. Buildings were crude in the extreme, usualy an open pole structure with roofing made of random width planks sawn on site. Many of them cut only one product. Railroad ties were a common product of small mills, and might make an interesting model.
A lot of the motive power for these outfits was provided by older rod type locomotives that were bought cheap as Class I and II lines replaced them with more modern power. ( If your interested in what these engines looked like, check out the old Buster Keaton silent movie, "The General". Thesae engines were bought from logging lines in the '20s or the movie. They been backdated a bit to fit the Civil War period, but they're still te real deal.) Geared locos were used on really steep grades and very flimsy temporary track. Where the grades were less steep and track was better locomotives were changed, the faster rod engines taking over. A junction like this might be an intersting scene to model and could justify a lot of equipment and engine facilities on your realtively small layout.
Almost anything that could haul logs was used as rolling stock, from flat cars (usually truss rod in your era) to purpose built log cars. Much of this equipment was home made, and a lot of it was in heavily used, if not held together by baling wire condition.
Some good reference material is available on the web. Try looking for the various Car and Locomotive Dictonaries from your period. You might also try looking at the EarlyRail discussion group on Yahoo. There are some pretty knowlegable folks there.
Hope this helps,
JBB

[wjstix]

Well maybe you should try to track down a copy (reprinted recently in softcover I believe) of Frank King's "Logging Railroads of Minnesota". Hey, if you're Norwegian, you DO have relatives in Minnesota, even if they're fairly distant...heck, you might be related to me (my grandparents were from Drammen and Lillehammer respectively)!! I agree cattle and logging don't go together too well. Cattle need large, flat areas to graze in. That wouldn't really fit with a hilly - mountainous logging railroad. On that small a layout, I'd maybe concentrate on one scene, like the logging camp itself, or the sawmill and small village that the logs go to. As it happens, I'm planning a simple 4 x 8 logging line now, which will (if designed properly) later be able to be incorporated into the basement-filling larger layout I'm planning. Basically it's a slightly kidney-shaped oval with 22" min radius, with a slightly elevated (about 1") 18" radius reverse loop line inside of that, and a two parallel spur tracks serving a log loading area near a logging camp. That's about it, I'm only planning on using four turnouts and a few buildings, I'm leaving as much as possible for scenery of northern Minnesota.

Keep in mind early logging was done by rivers, so that the logs could be floated downstream to the sawmills. Some early logging railroads did the same, as trees were cleared by the rivers, railroad lines would run from the riverbanks to where the logs were to bring them to the rivers. Eventually many lines connected with another big railroad to bring the logs to mills farther away. But in some cases they didn't connect with another railroad at all - for example, the Split Rock and Northern RR was owned by Split Rock Lumber Co. (for tax purposes, the line was incorporated as common carrier) and ran from where the Split Rock river in northern Minnesota flowed into Lake Superior. Logs were made into big "rafts" and floated down the north shore of the lake to sawmills in Two Harbors or even Duluth/Superior. The Gull Lake and Northern brought logs down to Gull Lake, where they were floated across to be loaded onto cars on the Northern Pacific line across the lake. (GL&N was a 3' gauge line if I remember correctly?)

[BRJN]

I think an interesting design would have an oval where the back half was hidden staging serving as a "mainline" that interchanges with a logging railroad which climbs a grade and has its facilities above where the mainline staging would be.

This is what I thought of when I read the original post.  A few years ago, MR staff built the Valley Forge Central RR using the same concept.