XtrkCAD is a good program and it's free. It is a little hard to learn but the tutorial definitely helps. You can download it at xtrkcad.org
Atlas RTS is also free. It's easier to learn but less accurate, and you are limited to only atlas track. You can get it off the atlas website.
Search this forum for "CAD" and you will find a number of different threads and opinions on this subject.
One thing to consider is that you are going to spend many thousands of dollars over a lifetime filling up a 20' x 24' room. Don't skimp on the planning phase by using a limited CAD program just because it is free.
Good luck,-John
I use XTRKCAD, it took me about a mounth to figure it out but it is far above RTS. In my opin ion for a free program it is unbeatable. There is a users gtroup on yahoo that is always giving advise and adding more files for use (it is sn open-sourse program).
Enjoy the design phase no mater what you use, its a gass.
I have been using CadRail for over 15 years through many upgrades. I am now at vs 8.0 and about to buy vs 9.0.
It is the most functional of all of the so called Cad programs by far. Automatic spiral easements, the ability to measure your turnouts and place them where needed. You can use any radius for curves. You can fix the maximum grade percentage. Automatic yard ladder creation and so many more features that allow you to design your layout the way YOU want it. AND, it will be able to be be printed out to actual size of you need it.
I had just about finished the drawing for my garage double track test oval when I saw a post that showed that by raising the layout level I could save a lot of space by placing the work bench UNDER a wall shelf instead of having to clear a 5 foot space along the wall. In lesss than 30 minutes, I moved the corner curves, added new tangents, put in two passing sidings with turnouts and a cross over and I am now a happy camper.
Any CAD program has a learning curve. If you follow the step by step tutorial you will save a lot of wasted time and misery, believe me.
loathar wrote:Spend the money and buy a good program. Xtrkcad is very difficult to use and many of it's files are user created, so your hoping other people got it right.
Interesting, but weird, argument.
Every time you use a piece of software someone else wrote, you will have to hope that other people got it right.
There is no guarantee that the result will be significantly better if the author of the code and config files is a lone wolf programmer that is asking for money for what he has written, than if the code and config was made by a team of volunteers that does things for free.
In either case it is the users that does the beta testing and reports bugs. And the programmer or programmers who fix (or don't fix) reported bugs.
So there is no inherent quality advantage to paying for your software. Except that you may feel that if you pay for your software, the programmer will feel a stronger commitment to fix reported bugs quickly, and thus errors will be fixed quicker.
Whether that is true depends on the actual programmers for the programs you are considering.
And it is an individual judgement whether that intangible feeling is worth paying quite a bit of cash for a piece of software you can get for free.
Anyways, Loathar - what specific program or programs would you recommend, and why ?
Smile, Stein
steinjr wrote: loathar wrote:Spend the money and buy a good program. Xtrkcad is very difficult to use and many of it's files are user created, so your hoping other people got it right. Interesting, but weird, argument. Every time you use a piece of software someone else wrote, you will have to hope that other people got it right. There is no guarantee that the result will be significantly better if the author of the code and config files is a lone wolf programmer that is asking for money for what he has written, than if the code and config was made by a team of volunteers that does things for free. In either case it is the users that does the beta testing and reports bugs. And the programmer or programmers who fix (or don't fix) reported bugs. So there is no inherent quality advantage to paying for your software. Except that you may feel that if you pay for your software, the programmer will feel a stronger commitment to fix reported bugs quickly, and thus errors will be fixed quicker. Whether that is true depends on the actual programmers for the programs you are considering. And it is an individual judgement whether that intangible feeling is worth paying quite a bit of cash for a piece of software you can get for free. Stein
Stein
In fact I find Open Source programs to often be better supported than "PayWare". The fact that users can create track libraries, is a plus rather than a deficiency.
I used Altas RTS for a long time but found it too limiting and there are issues with what is drawn working in the real world. I switched to XTrkCAD and after learning it, (not hard if you follow the tutorials then work with it for a week and then take a refresher through the tutorials) I like it. The only thing it seems to lack that the "PayWAre" programs have is graphical 3-D rendering. There is a Yahoo group for XTrkCAD and a number of forum members are very knowledgeable about the programs functionality.
I have also tried Cadrail and Winrail. Neither one has impressed me and the price...
The bottom line is you CAN plan your layout with paper, pencils, ruler, and compass, etc. With all the railroad stuff there is too buy for your layout, why spend any money on planning software when you can get a decent CAD program free?
Not a real accurate statement, in my opinoin. It isn't that difficult to use, but you have to learn a bit. Which will be true of any program powererful enough to do what we are trying to do. There are a lot of user created files, as well as files that came with it before it went open source. It isn't hard to check for accuracy, and all that you really need to check is the turnouts and special track you plan to use. It's hard to mess up flextrack. It is also easy to create your own custom turnouts, if you need something that it doesn't have.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
loathar wrote:Well guys...I tried it. Hated it
Wasn't questioning that you didn't like Xtrakcad. That's fair - there is no rule saying that you have to like any specific program. The reason for why there are more than one program is that some people like one program, others like another program.
loathar wrote:, and all I know is I still get about 15 E-mails a day from the user group from people complaining about it and having trouble doing even simple things with it. I notice a lot of the track plans people post here have misaligned track and rails that aren't connected correctly.
, and all I know is I still get about 15 E-mails a day from the user group from people complaining about it and having trouble doing even simple things with it. I notice a lot of the track plans people post here have misaligned track and rails that aren't connected correctly.
Sure. Sturgeons law applies in most activities, including CAD design of model railroads.
Quite a few people (especially those people who refuse to "waste time" on reading manuals or do tutorials) do not know how to work their software - whether it be web browsers, operating systems, image handling software, web forums or CAD software.
It is no different than e.g. the soldering of people who don't want to waste time learning how to solder produce.
A wise workman learns how to use his tools, and replaces those tools that is not useful for him with other tools that work better for him. Or her.
loathar wrote: I found with most open source programs you need to join a forum or user group to get help with all the bugs and problems you encounter.If the guys that built the program thought is was worth while, do you really think they would have made it open source instead of trying to make money with it?
If the guys that built the program thought is was worth while, do you really think they would have made it open source instead of trying to make money with it?
Yes, I think that quite a few people are willing to make software for no profit beyond getting a modest boost in their self esteem from the gratitude of fellow enthusiasts. Just like quite a few people are willing to spend of their own time trying to help fellow model railroaders on this forum, without expecting to be paid in cash for their time.
And I also think that quite a few people try to make money on selling software that is buggy, has a poor user interface, hardly is configurable etc. Just like there are people who create pretty useless "guide to model railroading" style publications and ask money for information they have gathered for free off the net.
Mind you - I am not saying that e.g payware like Cadrail is bad. I have no basis for judging e.g. Cadrail, since I haven't tried (and mastered) it myself.
The freeware program I am using is good enough for what I need. And I do produce plans where tracks are aligned and connected :-)
Anways - I am just saying that a blanket statement that payware is always good, freeware is always bad is a way too sweeping generalization.
As we try to teach our kids : "Never say Always"
Anyways - to reiterate the question you did not answer: which program do you recommend and why ?
I did this in Xtrkcad. These tracks all match up:
If you take the time to go through the tutorial, work with it for a while, and do the tutorial again, I think you can do about anything.
XtrkCAD allows you to adjust how much you can fudge measurements by. They can easily be adjusted to however tight tolerances you want.
One of my favorite features is being able to make your own cars and structures. You can draw them out with actual measurements add details and then save them as a structure or car file. I did this to make an SW-1 and some other cars. You can then run test trains before investing in actual materials. It allows you to easily test your layout's leads, runaround's and clearances to make sure your plan will work before spending money on it.
The program does take a while to figure out how to use, but after learning how to use it, it doesn't take long to draw up a plan and test it.
I chose Atlas RTS to try first. I was comfortable with using it in two days. (Today was the second day of using it.) I figure it is close enough because I will be fudging some things anyway, but it gives me an idea of the space required for most of the major track elements. Before you buy a program, I would advise that you give it a try. After all it's free. If you don't like it, purchase or use something else. My RR room is 9.5 feet by 24 feet and my layout is going around the walls. A little less than one-third of my layout is done, so I also drew that section, and things fell in place OK.
Hope this helps,
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
I like using XTrkCAD very much. I took my time with the tutorial, asked my engineer neighbor some questions about using CAD and then I started drawing. Here's my track plan...and all of the tracks are connected.
Don Z.
Research; it's not just for geeks.
Here's an example.
This isn't the most up to date version of my plan but it gives you the idea. Using a CAD program is great for planning a layout since it lets you easily make changes to see if they work without wasting too much effort.
I draw the scenery and labels onto my plans by printing to bitmap and editing in Paintshop. You may be able to do it in xtrkCAD but I haven't found it yet.
loathar wrote:Well guys...I tried it. Hated it, and all I know is I still get about 15 E-mails a day from the user group from people complaining about it and having trouble doing even simple things with it.
If by "user group", you mean the "I hate XTrkCAD too" user group...is it any surprise?
loathar wrote:I notice a lot of the track plans people post here have misaligned track and rails that aren't connected correctly.
I had this problem back when I didn't know how to use the program properly and had yet to go through the tutorials other than the beginners tutorial on the wiki site.
loathar wrote:I found with most open source programs you need to join a forum or user group to get help with all the bugs and problems you encounter.
In my case, I have yet to find a genuine bug in the program although they may exist. The problems I have encountered thus far, were of my own creation, ie; not knowing how to properly use the tools and commands, etc. The user group is often far more valuable than the non-existant support that comes with the purchase price of most retail software. I don't understand why you think that a person/company who develops a program for the purpose of increasing his/their own wealth would then offer on-going support of the program after the sale for free? Lots of retail software only includes "enter your credit card number now" support with the purchase price. Microsoft comes to mind. I would rather pose questions to a group of experienced users than wait on hold for someone who only knows what the support application on their computer tells them.
loathar wrote:If the guys that built the program thought is was worth while, do you really think they would have made it open source instead of trying to make money with it?
Hmm, Mozilla, aka Firefox, Linux, there are more...not everyone is a money grubbing like Bill Gates. Lots of programmers have created AWESOME applications for free. Some ask for donations if you like the program. I have supported more than one of these type of software developers in the past.
Anyway, just another
"For the money", XTrkCAD is unbeatable!
I like XtrkCad. Its free and does everything needful. I currently work in N and it has all the track products available that I am familiar with. It won't render in 3D but it will let you "play trains' on your plan which can help. I have built one 3x5 layout from plans I made using this program. Its not easy to transfer the 1:1 drawing, but the same challenge exists for all the other programs I have used.
I did try and enjoy 3rd Planit but the price was a barrier when XtrkCad did what I wanted for free. The Atlas program only works with atlas track and flex track is a bear. I have used a few others in past years but don't remember much more then not being impressed.
My only complaint with XtrkCad is that I cannot specify a fixed length for easements. It uses a single constant you can set to generate easements that vary in length depending on the radius you are turning into. This is probably more "proto" but for modeling purposes I want the easement to be a factor of the length of my longest projected car for that area. I want to control that variable and the exit radius and let the other variables adjust as required.
I have tried a few other CAD programs as well.. one thing they ALL have in common is a bit of a learning curve. Drawing with CAD is not like drawing with Photoshop. You will go through a learning curve of figuring out how to do what you need, then another curve as you find better and better ways to get the results you want.
Chris
Edit: Here is an example of a small plan I made and built:
In learning XtrkCad, I too was frustrated by the easements. I wanted them most of the time, but didn't necessarily want them where a curve ends at a turnout. And I was always adjusting the length of my curves to try different angles, and the easements added by XtrkCad threw off my calculations for start and end points.
Finally, I realized that I really just wanted trial fits, not an exact plan down to the 1/16". I want to know that my vision for each layout of the area will fit, and that there is space left for structures and scenery. So I turned off the easements, and added a 1/2" to my minimum radius. That way I know I'll have room for easements where the curves join straight track when I lay things out full size. And if I handlay my turnouts, I'll simply lay the easement right through the turnouts.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I too did not put them on the curved sections of turnouts. I just know I lack discipline to make sure I leave enough lead-in length in addition to the 1/2" radius since this would inevitably pinch the length of my sidings.. so I worked out a constant that worked for most my curves and then duplicated the created easement section for use elsewhere. I probably should do as you are doing and just make sure i add a straight piece in of half my easement length... projected to be 9" easement if I end up going with a modern layout with amfleet coaches, so that would be 4.5".
Its all a pain in butt when this should be stuff that can be specified. But not enough of a pain in the butt to make me go pay real $$!
loathar wrote:Well guys...I tried it. Hated it, ...
Did you use the 4.02 version or the pre-open source 3.xx version? I think this was a case where the developer just didnt feel like working on it. It has improved dramatically since the open source community started working on it.
As for Yahoo groups.. I always go to "web only" setting. Then I can view it by topic and avoid a lot of the chaff.. a problem on most of the software related groups.
I have not had problem mis-aligning track. On the other hand, I only use it with flex track and turnouts. So, I suppose, small alignment issues are not a problem. From what I understand, this is common with sectional track and a little "fudge" is common with sectional plans with all programs.
Certainly if it did not work for you, then try one of the others. If you use atlas sectional track then their RTS program might work well. Otherwise, try the demo for 3rd Planit.