I like rigid foam for flat layouts because it is lighter than homasote.
If you use rigid foam, how have you created inclines and changed levels?
-Doug
There have been references in this forum to the use of the "Cookie-Cutter" method to build inclines on foam-topped layouts. It involves cutting through both the foam layer and the underlying supporting layer of plywood and then raising the cut portions up to the appropriate elevation on risers. One of the advantages of this method is that it gives you a gradual easement into the incline slope at both the top and bottom of the slope.
The only problem with the WS system for inclines is that, as I understand it, they come in only a limited number of incline slopes. If one of these grades works for you, this would probably be the easiest way to build a incline. You'd not have to worry about cutting the foam, etc. or having to place risers to create the slope.
Bob
This is a photo of the underside of my layout:
You can see the basic horizontal rafters going across. That is the "base level" that the lowest foam rests on. To get higher elevation, I rest the foam on the T-shaped wooden "trestles" that you can see attached to the rafters. In the upper left corner of the picture, you can see one of the foam "ramps" that goes up from the base level to the higher level.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
About a week ago, I posted a comment in this forum regarding my plan to use rigid foam as a layout and scenery base. That post elicited a number of responses - mostly negative regarding the long term stabiity of trackwork mounted on foam.
Nevertheless, I am proceeding with my "experiment". I now have a 6x16 table covered with 2" thick rigid white foam. I plan to use rigid white foam of varying thickness to build up incline bases and scenery support. I have seen the Woodland Scenics pre-cut foam, but I have not given it serious attention yet. If I can produce my own inclines, etc., I suspect that it will be much less expensive.
My table is 2x4 open frame construction, covered with inexpensive sheathing ("engineered wood" sheathing available at any building supply store) as a base platform. I have used coarse-thread drywall screws mounted through 2" diameter flat washers to secure the rigid foam to the sheathing. The washers distribute the load effectively and the rigid foam base appears to be securely mounted to the sheathing base.
I will use Woodland Scenics foam roadbed under sectional and flex track. Track will be mounted to the foam roadbed and to the rigid foam base with #18 gauge nails one inch long - again commonly available at building supply companies. One inch length is the longest I have found in 18 gauge nails. At this point I do not plan to use any form of adhesive to mount either the foam roadbed or the track - we'll see what develops.
I'll continued to report on progress and results.
Regards,
Art
coil_nine,
I'm a novice and this is my first attempt at creating an elevation with foam. I really wracked my brain trying to figure out how to cut the foam and get my grade the way I wanted it. I decided to start with foam blocks cut at .5 inches and spread them out. I glued the foam blocks with liquid nails for foam. I'm then going to just piece in the area's in between to support the road bed. Once that's done I'm going to pull up the roadbed and cover or blanket over the foam blocks with plaster cloth and scenery. Here is a pick of the start of my elevation:
A couple of comments for you, Art. First, the disclaimer: these are MY opinions, not mandates from on high! LOL My opinion is no more valuable than anyone else's opinion. Having that out of the way, I'll proceed:
It sounds like your base table is more than strong enough! 2x4's!! And 'engineered wood'! Great start!
Choice of foam: White foam is not what I would choose for a layout base. It is expanded polystyrene. The pink or blue "extruded" polystyrene is a better choice because it is much denser than white foam and isn't as messy when you cut it. I think the negative comments you got earlier were in regards to the white foam, not foam in general. My layout has been constructed of ALL foam and after 5 years, I 've had NO problems with stability! But you have what you have and on the base you built, it should work fine. Attaching it with screws and washers is the accepted practice in home construction; most layout builders use an adhesive. With adhesives, you don't have to worry about covering up screw heads with scenery.
Self-sticking Woodland Scenics foam roadbed is a pretty good product. Unfortunately, I believe it's no longer in production (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that!). Using nails to secure the track may be a bad choice. Nails don't hold well in foam. They may work themselves loose and according to Murphy's Law, they will do so just as your expensive locomotive runs over them! A cheap latex adhesive caulk would hold the track better than nails. A very thin layer of caulk, pin the tracks down until the caulk sets and you'll have a very sturdy track that isn't too difficult to make changes to in the future.
As for building inclines, there are several ways to do it. Here's some pictures on how I did my little layout:
The first pictures shows two inclines that are hidden under the top level. The outer incline is climbing 2" to connect to the upper level (N scale layout, BTW). The inner incline is climbing up in the opposite direction to meet the other track at the front of the layout. Both inclines were made by cutting pieces of foam to create the incline.
The next picture shows the inner incline from the first picture as it emerges from the tunnel (the lower track next to it is the other track that begins it's climb inside the tunnel). Once again, the upper track is supported by a solid piece of foam that was cut to fit the curve. The foam piece was angle-cut to match the incline.
The next picture shows how a slab of foam was supported by spacers to make a smooth and constant incline. This part of the layout was built by laminating 1" thick foam to build the levels up. The blue layers are sub-bases. There are two 1" layers to create the 2" thick base of the layout. Then there is one layer added to support the spacers and incline. The final layer is supported on the spacers as the track climbs to the upper level, 4" above the base level. Notice that the spacers increase in thickness as the grade goes up.
This last picture shows the area around the curve to the right of the third picture. Notice that the inclined level is already 2" high on the left side of the picture and climbs to almost 3" high on the right side of the picture. The piece of foam that forms the incline is one continuous piece, cut to fit. Also notice the tracks on the lower level are starting to climb from left to right. This incline was made by cutting the foam to create the incline. (BTW, I cut the incline pieces 'backwards' and 'upside down'. Try as I might, I couldn't cut a piece smooth enough for the track, so by cutting it backwards and upside down, I could install the piece with the factory-smooth side up. It made laying the track so much easier!
A final thought: you seem to have an aversion to adhesives. When building with foam and laying track, the correct adhesive will do a better job than any other methods. The only downside to adhesives is that they MAY make changes a bit more difficult. Usually with foam, however, a sharp knife easily separates the glued pieces.
I hope my comments help. Don't take my word as gospel! I'm only commenting on how I did my layout. The important thing is to have fun, no matter how you build your layout!
Darrell, quiet...for now
Thank you for the ideas and pictures! I will give it a try. One of the methods should work for me.
AltoonaRailroader wrote: I'm a novice and this is my first attempt at creating an elevation with foam. I really wracked my brain trying to figure out how to cut the foam and get my grade the way I wanted it. I decided to start with foam blocks cut at .5 inches and spread them out.
I'm a novice and this is my first attempt at creating an elevation with foam. I really wracked my brain trying to figure out how to cut the foam and get my grade the way I wanted it. I decided to start with foam blocks cut at .5 inches and spread them out.
Wow I am impressed with the lengths to which some modellers go to achieve their ends. I supppose there are some occasions when one would want to spend a time and save a few dollars figuring out their own system. I guess I just wanted to get my layout up and running asap.
To that end, I went immediately to the Woodland Scenics product.
On the other hand, I think that perhaps some elevaton builders aren't aware of the foam system that can get them up and running asap. I am not posting an ad, but I can only think that many aren't aware of these products because of the lengths to which they have gone: here are some images.
No, this is not an ad. I just feel for the guys wracking their brains while I run my trains.
And if 2,3,or 4 degree inclines are not exactly what you want, these guys can be more easily trimmed to half degrees than DIY blocks. That's what I did in a couple of spots.
Using a combination of these, any viable incline slope can be created and DIY cutting of blocks and cookie cutting of layout structure can be minimized.
I don't consider them expensive, but I have a high opinion of the value of my time.
Hope this helps in the future.
dgwinup wrote: Self-sticking Woodland Scenics foam roadbed is a pretty good product. Unfortunately, I believe it's no longer in production (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that!). Darrell, quiet...for now
OK, I'll correct you. Woodland Scenics foam roadbed is not the self-sticking stuff. That was AHM roadbed. It received mixed reviews from users, and is no longer in production. WS foam roadbed must be glued down, but it's still alive and well at an LHS near you. I use WS roadbed, and I'm very happy with it.
Mister Beasley, foaming...for now
Thanks for the detailed info regarding your use of foam throughout your layout. I agree that the expanded foam is not as dense as the extruded foam. I used the expanded foam because I was able to obtain 2" thick sheets as "manufacturing seconds" locally from a company which manufactures this product for $2.50 per 4x8 sheet. The best price I have found locally for a 4x8 sheet of 2" extruded pink foam is $26.00. I have two 4x16 tables and one 3x4 connecting table to cover with the base material, so the price delta is signifncant to me.
Base upon your experience and photos, I will likely rethink my plans for the upper structure - I especially appreciate your detailed explanation and photos regarding incline supports - the thought of cutting sections and carving the incline in a reverse pattern is excellent and seems to be the best solution to a vexing problem. Please provide a few more detailed comments about your techniques in this area and more photos if possible.
Were you able to obtain extruded foam in varying thicknesses, as appears to be the case in your photos? If so, how and where did you obtain the material and what thicknessses do you recommend? Cost?
Since I am committed to WS foam roadbed, what are your thoughts regarding using latex caulk as an adhesive to secure the WS foam to the extruded foam and then securing the track to the WS foam? Especially, what about ease of removal without destroying the WS foam roadbed?
Thanks again and I look forward to more of your thoughts.
Fawlty Logic wrote: AltoonaRailroader wrote: I'm a novice and this is my first attempt at creating an elevation with foam. I really wracked my brain trying to figure out how to cut the foam and get my grade the way I wanted it. I decided to start with foam blocks cut at .5 inches and spread them out. Wow I am impressed with the lengths to which some modellers go to achieve their ends. I supppose there are some occasions when one would want to spend a time and save a few dollars figuring out their own system. I guess I just wanted to get my layout up and running asap.To that end, I went immediately to the Woodland Scenics product.On the other hand, I think that perhaps some elevaton builders aren't aware of the foam system that can get them up and running asap. I am not posting an ad, but I can only think that many aren't aware of these products because of the lengths to which they have gone: here are some images.No, this is not an ad. I just feel for the guys wracking their brains while I run my trains.And if 2,3,or 4 degree inclines are not exactly what you want, these guys can be more easily trimmed to half degrees than DIY blocks. That's what I did in a couple of spots. Using a combination of these, any viable incline slope can be created and DIY cutting of blocks and cookie cutting of layout structure can be minimized.I don't consider them expensive, but I have a high opinion of the value of my time. Hope this helps in the future.
Hi Faulty, I did take a look at these and to tell you the truth it would have been a good idea to start with one of these especially for starting this elevation on a curve. In hind sight, yeah, but you know you gotta start somewhere.
I use Liquid Nails for Projects to attach WS foam roadbed to my pink foam, and to attach the track to the roadbed.
The caulk sets up pretty quickly to a "not going anywhere" state. It takes a number of days to really harden up. Even after it's hard, it's relatively easy to remove the track from the roadbed. However, the roadbed sometimes gets chewed up in the process. Removing roadbed from pink foam destroys the roadbed.
So, it's a good idea to be pretty sure of your track placement before you start gluing things down. With pink foam, I've found that I can bend paper clips into a U-shape, and use those to hold down both the track and the roadbed pretty well while I decide whether or not the track path is going to work. I've got some of this "temporary" trackwork that's been held down by paper clips for 2 years now.
AltoonaRailroader wrote: you know you gotta start somewhere.
you know you gotta start somewhere.
Hey, I am glad you had everything at hand. There is nothing wrong with DIY down to the nitty gritty at all. More power to you. My own experience is that I often find out too late what all my options were (and that is why I love this forum). Being a retired educator I have lingering compulsion to try to get projects finished fast before the bell rings.
ArtDaniels wrote: Were you able to obtain extruded foam in varying thicknesses, as appears to be the case in your photos? If so, how and where did you obtain the material and what thicknessses do you recommend? Cost?Since I am committed to WS foam roadbed, what are your thoughts regarding using latex caulk as an adhesive to secure the WS foam to the extruded foam and then securing the track to the WS foam? Especially, what about ease of removal without destroying the WS foam roadbed?Regards,Art
There are two sections to my layout, both 30" x 48", arranged in an "L" shape. The original section marked my return to model railroading after a long absence. I had never used foam before and thought this was a good opportunity to try it. At the time, I was able to buy a couple of damaged 4' x 8' panels 2" thick at a local building supplier (this was before both Lowe's and Home Depot opened stores about 1 mile from my home!). I think I paid around $30 for both. My intention was to laminate two 2" thick layers for strength, but I ended up putting some 1" thick white foam spacers between the two layers for wiring purposes. The track plan is a mirror-image of John Allen's original Gorre & Daphetid layout.
Foam construction was very fast. I had trains running in a couple of weeks and most of the basic scenery done in another two to three weeks. While I continued to add to the original layout, I already knew I wanted more. A second 30"x48" section was planned. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get more 2" foam at a good price, so I settled for several 4'x8' panels of 1" foam, discount priced because of minor damage. I laminated two pieces together to form the sub-base and another two pieces to form the base level. These pairs of laminations were also separated by 1" spacers to allow for wiring.
Here's a photo of the addition under construction that shows the 2" thick base layer and how the next layer was built with cut-out pieces of laminated foam. Notice the unpainted blue and white sections towards the back. Yes, that's right, I used WHITE foam in part of the underlying scenery. No sense using the more expensive blue foam just to build up a layer!
This next picture shows the addition connected to the original layout. The final layers of foam have been added and basic scenery has been applied. Obviously, the track plan allowed for further expansion at the bottom of the addition.
I used Liquid Nails for Foam as an adhesive throughout the layout, including on the cork roadbed. The track was pinned to the cork roadbed until ballasting was completed, then the pins were removed. A side note here: the only thing holding the track in place is the ballast! Many years ago, I experimented with dry powdered resin glue pre-mixed with ballast. After spreading the ballast/resin glue mixture, a heavy misting with water activated the resin. The result was a very strong adhesive binding the ballast to the track and the track to the roadbed. While I still like the powdered resin glue, on my next layout I will use a mix of latex caulk and resin glue for base construction and track laying.
The final layout picture looks from the end of the original layout with the addition on the far end.
One last picture of a repair I had to make to correct a dip in an incline. I used carved pieces of foam to create the incline, but I was less than careful with my carving. I ended up with a dip that created traction problems. The incline already exceeded 3%; the dip probably made a section with over 5% incline! I simply cut a slit in the 2" foam layer under the inclined area and used small pieces of cork roadbed to widen the slit. I was able to correct the grade enough to eliminate the 5% section.
It's obvious that I'm a BIG fan of foam construction. My experience is that the 2" thick foam needs little or no support to span up to 24". It is easy to cut and shape, takes paint well, can be glued with caulk, white or yellow glue and isn't expensive when you consider the cost of lumber and plywood needed to make a frame for conventional construction.
Your asked a final question about destroying WS foam roadbed glued to foam. I don't have experience with the WS roadbed product but I would imagine that getting it up in one piece would be difficult if not impossible. I have made a few changes with my cork roadbed and didn't experience any special difficulty. I did have to replace a portion of the cork in the process, but most of it came up easily. There were also a few dents in the foam where the glued cork pulled out small chunks of foam. It was easy to fill the dents with joint compound to provide a smooth surface for relaying the roadbed.
Since you already have a good supply of expanded foam, I'd go ahead and use it. I doubt that you'll experience any problems with it, although I suspect that pulling up glued roadbed might pull up some foam along with the roadbed. As already mentioned, that isn't a big repair problem! The expanded foam isn't as structurally stable as the extruded foam, but as long as you have good support under it, it should be fine.
Sorry for the very lengthy reply. I hope it has been helpful or, at least, entertaining! LOL
I don't know if this helps, but my 24zx24' HO Yuba River Sub is built entirely of rigid 2" extruded foam on 2x2" bracing, using 2% WS risers for elevation. It's a mountain railroad, so the total elevation from 'level' to highest point is almost 24". I've done this by using both WS 2% inclines and stacked 4" risers, plus stacked 2" extruded foam. It's worked just fine for me, and I run fairly heavy brass locomotives and long trains. I've used Elmer's Carpenter Wood glue to cement the foam risers together, and it's worked just fine for the past six years.
Here's a shot of Yuba Pass, the highest point on the railroad. Everything under the train in the top center is stacked WS risers and 2" extruded foam. Before the scenery was put in, it looked SCARY everytime I ran a train over it.
Hope this helps.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite wrote: I don't know if this helps, but my 24zx24' HO Yuba River Sub is built entirely of rigid 2" extruded foam on 2x2" bracing, using 2% WS risers for elevation. It's a mountain railroad, so the total elevation from 'level' to highest point is almost 24". I've done this by using both WS 2% inclines and stacked 4" risers, plus stacked 2" extruded foam. It's worked just fine for me, and I run fairly heavy brass locomotives and long trains. I've used Elmer's Carpenter Wood glue to cement the foam risers together, and it's worked just fine for the past six years. Here's a shot of Yuba Pass, the highest point on the railroad. Everything under the train in the top center is stacked WS risers and 2" extruded foam. Before the scenery was put in, it looked SCARY everytime I ran a train over it. Hope this helps. Tom
Rebell--
I used WS foam roadbed for the sub-base. Works just fine.
On my layout I used 1" rigid styrofoam insulation board built up in layers and then I cut the inclines into it.
First I carefully planned the layout by drawing it out on a full size plan. I planned out the basic shape of each layer of foam and transfered the dimensions to the 1" foam.
Then I positioned each layer on the layout and glued the foam down with regular white glue.
Then I waited several days for the glue to dry before carving the inclines. I transfered the track plan to the stacked layout and marked the track location with a permanent ink marker. Using a knife, rasp and sandpaper block, I carved the inclines. Use a flexible straightedge to ensure that the incline stays level. If too much was cut on an incline, fill it in with light spackling compound. I marked the inclines to tell where the 1, 2 or 3" heights should cross the inclines to help keep the incline on course.