So i've been digging... and am I to take it that if I ever want a turnout in code 55, i'll have to build/handlay it myself? I don't get why Micro Engineering doesn't making turnouts in code 55; they make the flextrack in weathered and non-weathered, so i would think they would make turnouts as well.
I need a couple of them... and if theres an easy brand to get going, then I'm going to need a few more. Anybody have any suggestions? I've never handlaid any track... I've been thinking about getting a couple short sections of rail from the Proto87 stores along with CVT tie strips, because they seem to have all the parts molded right on them. Is this the case, or do you still need to put spikes into them? I've been looking at their turnout kits from the P87 store... but it just seems so daunting to have to lay the frog and connect the points to a throw bar and yada yada yada. And there aren't any on ebay either! haha
Turnout kits such as offered by BK Enterprises are the easy solution. I've laid scores of BKs over the years and they are bullet-proof. All you need are turnout-length wooden ties (and glue to hold them to the roadbed), flat-head spikes, a needle-nosed plier, and two or three three-point track gauges. It is pretty straightforward. After ties have been secured (you may need to sand and restain the top of the ties to assure consistent tie height), it should take no more than a short afternoon to lay your first two turnouts. Besides accurately gauging the track, make sure the points lie equal distant from the outside rails when in a "natural" position and lie flat. Don't use spikes for much of the length between points and frog so that the points can move without much effort. Otherwise, I spike the rail about every inch, with a greater concentration at the frog, guard rails, and running rails immediately before the points. It may take a couple of months or so to receive turnouts once ordered (although it has been a decade or so since I ordered any.)
Mark
i don't mean to bump my own thread, but ive been doing a lot of research and I've found that Railway Engineering offers completely fabricated handlaid turnouts with weathered wooden ties. Does anyone here have any experience with their products at all? I'm not a fan of their headblock-as-throwbar approach, but it would be better than nothing, and they only take a week, and are only like $25.
Unless someone here would be able to create a couple of the P87 turnouts that use the CVT turnout strips for me, for full monetary compensation of course?
Greg,
My opinion based on my experience:
I have installed a couple of these on my current layout, one in code 83 and one in code 70. I spiked them to the ties. Since then I have started using PC ties and if I had it to do again I would probaly solder the rails to a few strategically placed PC ties ala fast tracks.
RE the head block: You can unsolder the tie there and make any arrangement that suits you. Or you can add headblock ties on either side of the throwbar (I believe that is the way he intends them to be installed). Check out the fast tracks site for some turnout templates that show common turnout tie arrangements to get some ideas.
Railway Engineering turnouts work very well but are not as user friendly to install as some might have you believe. It is possible to screw these up but if you are patient, and have the gauges, they do make a very smooth functioning turnout that is closer to hand laid quality than prefab turnouts. Difficulty factor is somewhere between handlaying and putting down prefab turnouts. A thorough knowledge of handlaying turnouts and general turnout construction is very helpful when installing these.
The company can sometimes have a long lead time to build stuff, he has a menu on the site somewhere to see what he has in stock. I would buy items he has on hand if you need it quick. Bk turnouts, Darr and another whose name escapes me now, are all similar in difficulty, end product and general method of installation.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Yeah, i've been checking the site. The R.E. guy emailed me back saying a #6 would take about a week. They DO have #4 turnouts in stock... i'm just not sure I want to go that sharp. But again... its for 2 spur sidings (as in one turnout leads to a spur that has a turnout on it leading to another spur, if that makes sense).
Are you saying, though, that I should still buy track guages (i have the NMRA Mark IV) to use if I'm installing them with flextrack?
Actually... I just had a thought. Couldn't you use the Railway Engineering turnouts, without their wooden ties attached, and place them on top of Central Valley tie strips? I have some tie strips coming... and I just thought of that, instead of having to put them together ala P87 turnout packages.
Yes. Buy a gauge. Even commercial track and turnouts can go out of gauge. A dial caliper will work too. Here's all the NMRA standards. I printed all these out into a handy book.http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html
I doubt if you can put a RE turnout on CV tie strips. Geometries vary between manufacturers even though they are both #6's. The method JFugate uses in the link I sent you relies on using the Central Valley geometry. See if RE has a template you can download. CV has templates on their site for their turnouts. You can match the 2 up and see if they are the same.
loathar wrote:I doubt if you can put a RE turnout on CV tie strips. Geometries vary between manufacturers even though they are both #6's. The method JFugate uses in the link I sent you relies on using the Central Valley geometry. See if RE has a template you can download. CV has templates on their site for their turnouts. You can match the 2 up and see if they are the same.
Greg
Excuse my delay in replying. Was doing a little checking through my limited resources. At first, I questioned in my mind the use of code 55 rail (representing 75lb rail on the prototype) on a mining branch (heavy loaded cars), and/or the use of tie plates and other track details. Looked at your other posts and realized that you are in the diesel era, so tie plates are definitely in.
As for prototype rail sizes, according to John Armstrong in Creative Layout Design, fully 30% of US main line trackage was still less than 100lb rail in 1975. According to the chart in the Nov '62 Model Railroader in 1960, 110-119lb rail (code 70 is close, code 75 is closer) was the dominant rail size in use by Class 1 railroads. There was a large spike at 130-139lbs (code 83), and a substantial, but tapering lower usage as size progressed through the 90-99lb, 80-89lb, and 70-79lb range.
I would have thought that by the late 1950s any mining line would be using heavier rail, but I'm not so sure any more. Probably depends more on your particular prototype than anything else. In any case, the use of heavier rail for turnouts and crossings would not be inappropriate, especially where the turnouts saw heavy usage. What I am doing is giving you plausibility for usinge code 70 turnouts with the code 55 flex track. Both MicroEngineering and Shinohara make code 70 turnouts for HO standard gauge.
Steve Hatch (Railway Engineering) does make wonderful turnouts; his HOn3 code 55 gems are sought after. But as Loathar and Guy pointed out, the points may not be the same length as the Central Valley kits are set up for. Several custom turnout builders use one of the switch stand ties as the throw bar to avoid the unrealistic sliding tie between the switch stand ties that so many commercial turnouts use. How to come up with more realistic throw bar arrangements has been a recent topic in the Yahoo Handlaidtrack group.
Another caution to watch with the Central Valley kits is that they are designed for ME code 83 rail, IIRC. Again, IIRC, ME code 70 rail has very close to the same width at the rail base. But if the width of the rail base of the code 55 rail you are using is narrower than ME code 83 rail, the rail will have a "sloppy" fit in the CV ties. The ties will not be quite "self gauging" like they ordinarily are; you will need track gauges to gauge the rails while the glue is activated.
Joe Fugate wanted the extra tie plate detail of the Central Valley ties (to match his beautifully painted ME flex track), so he figured out a way to use some of the Fast Track benefits of repeated and consistent accuracy in gauge and performance with the Central Valley ties, at a much cheaper price than the entire Fast Tracks jig set. I believe you have been given a link to how he does this.
Another option is to the CV turnout kits with the beautifully detailed frogs and points available from Proto 87 Stores. Unfortunately, for code 55 rail they only come in #7 or larger. Or use Proto87 tie plates and other details you select with Railway Engineering turnouts on wood ties. See http://www.proto87.com/ho-turnouts.html for more details.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Hey thanks for the reply. I knew that CVT strips were basically meant for ME rail, but I'm confused about the fact that Proto87 offers code 55 turnouts with the CVT turnout tie-strips, and they say that their rail is fine-scale.
do you, or anybody else, know what the difference between regular ME rail and the proto87 fine-scale rail? I've been thinking of just ordering one of those and getting a Details West frog (and point) set, because I really like the way theirs looks
DeadheadGreg wrote:Hey thanks for the reply. I knew that CVT strips were basically meant for ME rail, but I'm confused about the fact that Proto87 offers code 55 turnouts with the CVT turnout tie-strips, and they say that their rail is fine-scale.do you, or anybody else, know what the difference between regular ME rail and the proto87 fine-scale rail? I've been thinking of just ordering one of those and getting a Details West frog (and point) set, because I really like the way theirs looks
Proto87 uses ME rail, sold by Proto87. The only non-ME rail I know of sold by Proto87 was/is some code 81 (in both steel/nickel silver) made by Right of Way, and later by LaVancil (sp?). Andy Reichert (Proto87) may still have some of the code 81 available. But his code 83, 70, 55, and 40 is all made by ME. I would check with Proto87 about using the code 55 in the CV tie strips and switch kits. Andy knows far more about this than I do.
Since I model an earlier era, an era before tie plates and creosoted ties, and I prefer to roll my own track and turnouts, I use Proto87 spikes, directly spiking the rail to wood ties. Add some grape vine twig ties for the rough-hewn look (thanks to Steve Hatch for that tip), and I'm far closer to my prototype than ME flex track or CV tie strips. I also need the ability to do curved and custom-size frogs; standard frogs take up too much space in my small layout space.
My preference is to lay track in place on the layout; I like the resulting flowing curves and turnouts. I ballast the ties before I spike the rail. So if I add basic scenery before laying ties and spiking the rail, I get a very nice "track under construction" appearance between track laying sessions.
But those are my choices; nearly everyone who hand lays track ends up with their own particular preferences and methods.
because track is a model, too
Code 55 is really easy to hand lay turnouts with. The rail is pretty small so filing points by hand isn't much of a problem. There are a number of articles on hand built turnouts in the magazine archives. Instead of wringing your hands about their commercial unavailability why not buy a few pieces of rails, some ties and spikes. You'll need a mill (flat) file, small pliers, a dremel with cut-off disc is handy, and a soldering iron (if you decide to solder your frogs) and the all important NMRA track gauge. A magnifying head visor is also a good idea but it you don't have one already you should get one anyway.
Try it. About 75% of the difficulty of handlaid turnouts is getting up the nerve to try. I still have the first handlaid turnout I built in service but if you make a couple of clunkers don't worry, just try another one. You should be able to get enough materials to build several turnouts for the price of 1 or two of the new walthers ones. And you'll have a lot more satisfaction when they're done and installed than you'll ever have from buying a prefab and tacking into place.
The other benefit of hand laid is you can make the turnouts to fit the track plan instead of making the track plan fit the turnouts (which is what you're stuck with when using commercial offerings). You may become a turnout laying fiend, a veritable stell driving man, a modern Jawn Henry if you will!
Regards,
Charlie Comstock
ps. I use PC ties (from Clover House) to hold turnouts in gauge while I build them at my work bench. Just besure to file gaps in the top side foil so they don't short out.
Yeah I'm seeing that its not a big deal. I'm just still on the fence about whether to go with Proto 87 turnout kits or with Railway Engineering or with Details West frog and points. I really like the Details West points, but they're hinged, and I'd have to use regular rail for closure and wing rails.
Does ANYONE here have the Proto 87 turnouts? I'm really curious to hear your opinions.
DeadheadGreg wrote:... Does ANYONE here have the Proto 87 turnouts? I'm really curious to hear your opinions.
...
Proto87 turnouts can look gorgeously prototypical. And if built taking proper care to line everything up they'll operate just fine.
But Proto87 turnouts will NOT work at all with regular HO stuff. You'll need to put proto 87 wheel sets under all your cars. If you have steam engines, you'll need to remove the drivers and machine them to the finer scale proto 87 contour. Etc. If you're prepared for this amount of work and think you can handle the precision track laying then go for it. Your layout will look wonderful. But if you're not prepared to have to do machine shop work on many of your locos you'd do well to stick with standard HO (I use code 88 - semi scale - wheels sets on much of my equipement and have not been experiencing problems - but if you have track gauged at the wide end of the NMRA standard the narrowing tread with can become an issue. I know of a local layout where the track on a bridge is wide enough that the code 88 wheels tend to fall 'into' the track going between the rails... The owner sticks to the standard RP25 wheels.
Good luck,
I've build an Proto87 ULTIMATE HO TURNOUT for my new module. I operate with standard RP25 and DCC. Until now I've got no problems.
You can see it under turnouts.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
Wolfgang, well I'm surprised, I didn't think that standard HO and proto87 mixed. The flanges on proto87 are a bit narrower.
Another thing about proto87 (or proto48) is you can have self-guarding frogs (which can't be done with full RP25 width wheel treads.
If anyone is feeling like taking a dip into proto87 you might check out Andy Reichardts http://www.proto87stores.com web site.
The Proto87 stores offer craftsman HO turnouts AND Fine-Scale Proto87 turnouts. You can get either; they also offer wheels and trucks and couplers if you want to go Proto87, but you CAN get regular HO track and turnouts.
has anyone here used the Railway Engineering turnouts, though?