I'm new to the forums and have started thinking about model railroading after a long absence to raise kids, build my career, go to school, etc. Now that I'm in my late 40's, I find I have more time to devote to the hobby.
So, here's my question: I've decided to go with N scale (although I've only modeled in HO in the past) and have several options for areas to place my layout. Unfortunately, all the areas I'm considering have pros and cons and none of them are close to each other.
The area I think I'm going to use is in a finished attic area. The major drawback is that it has kneewalls and a slanting roof. So, I'll be limited on the height of the layout. I'm considering making the layout at a lower height (30 to 36 inches off the floor) and operate it basically sitting down. Almost all of the layouts I've seen have been at a higher elevation and designed for standing and walking.
The major "con" I see to this idea is mobility around the layout (I'm thinking an around the wall type layout with a penisula).
Has anyone tried this before? Should I try this or scrap it and go to another area in the house (which would present other "cons")? Any advice would be appreciated.
I don't have quite the same issue, but I do have a double decker in N scale that I'm building. It poses some of the same issues when it comes to the lower level.
I made mine so it's midchest high when I'm sitting in a rollaround cheapie office chair.
This is a pic from quite a while ago, but it shows my chair next to the layout.
I planned my layout for operation and some construction while sitting. My aged knees don't do well standing for long periods. My layout is only 3 1/2 X 13, so I don't have to move around much. I keep a stool at each primary operating area so I sort of stroll from perch to perch as the train moves along. I run shays, so it takes a while for the trains to cover much ground. The slow speeds make the layout seem much larger than it is.
The lower-than-usual height makes it possible to share my layout with my nephew; he uses a wheelchair.
In my younger days I had higher layouts, but I'm enjoying the sitting height just fine.
-Phil
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
73
Bruce in the Peg
There is an old model railroading wisdom stand-by called Givens & Druthers.
The Givens include things like room dimensions and modeling scale. The Druthers include what is realistic to achieve based upon the Givens. It is like playing cards => What is the hand that is dealt to you?
Here are some of my Givens & Druthers to give you "food for thought" to process your own specific set of Givens & Druthers:
CR&T Givens...
1) Room size with apx. 85 usable square feet (9' x 9').
2) Traction with PCC (passenger), box motors (freight), and a few diesel switchers.
3) The PRR (diesel and some steam) interchanges with the traction company.
4) Options for unattended continuous running while switching Traction or PRR.
5) Traction "live overhead" allows double-use with 2-rail diesels on same track.
6) Layout benchwork will be a shelf layout averaging 2' - 3' from the wall.
CR&T Druthers...
1) Circa 1956 provides prototype flexibility for traction, diesel, and steam.
2) Adding "Road" to Conemaugh Traction name allows use of industrial diesel switchers.
3) N Scale means operations are never cut back 50% by modeling HO Scale.
4) Adding an Upper Level will expand and double operations.
5) The PRR will stage on the Upper Level, and the CR&T stays on the Lower Level.
6) The Upper Level now must have a Helix to connect to the Lower Level.
7) 2-track Helix for 2 PRR trains to simultaneously go to & return from Lower Level.
8) The 6" space below the Helix (CR&T), and 6" above the Helix (PRR) can still be used.
9) A "duck under" on only the Upper Level can add another continuous running option.
10) Shelf benchwork means "cockpit operations" has either a rolling chair, a stool, or standing.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
Some earlier small layouts I did were only 32-34". This was done so the children could reach most of the layout. It was a bit inconveinent for me, but I would just roll around in an office chair. This was more for their enjoyment so I didn't care. They grow too fast.
As said there are many things to consider when using an attic space. If not properly walled off and insulated the temperature and humidity swings can play havoc with the RR and you. Conditions at certain times will drive you right out.
Just how much open area do you have? If the attic is fairly large, build a new kneewall at the position to allow a layout height of at least 38-40" and still allow a backdrop of about 12". This would put the walls at about 50-52". If this is doable and it doesn't eat up all the floor space, you will be much happier. I don't know the construction or how well it's insulated. Are there any windows at the gable ends to use a small A/C unit?
If you don't really want to build new finished walls, just stud them out as part of the benchwork. The open frame above the layout can be finished for a backdrop.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
I have plenty of headroom, and vertical walls. I also have arthritic knees and feet that limit the length of time I can stand comfortably.
My solution - build all of the benchwork with legs well back from the fascia edges, and set the basic height to one that's comfortable to work with while seated in a roll-around chair.
Somewhat different problem, but effectively the same solution.
On the other sub-topic that's arisen here, my layout is housed in a non-climate-controlled Mojave Desert garage that has been right at freezing on several recent mornings and can substitute for a sauna on August afternoons. The temperature sometimes bothers me, but doesn't seem to have bothered the trains.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I have to have my layout at seated operating/maintenance/construction height (standing more than about 45 seconds becomes increasingly excruciating). For me around 34" works out best, and by 36" I start having serious reach-over issues with anything between me and my target.
My advice is to find a comfortable and sturdy rolling chair before you start planning, then do some experiments to see how much open space you need to avoid slamming into other parts of your layout or other things in the vicinity. You can also experiment from your chair for height/reach-over by stacking books and catalogs on a table...wear the baggiest sleeved shirt you are likely to wear while working on your railroad.
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
Wow - thanks for all the responses and advise!
Okay, I guess I should explain the space a little more. I called it an attic, but it started life more as a "Bonus Room". You access it by walking from my Den directly into it. It's insulated and is very pleasant year round if I leave the door open into the room. In fact, it was my computer room for years when I had a large desk top computer and still contains lots of stuff that is senstive to temperature and moisture. Right now, it's mainly a catch all room with files, old computer software, old computer equipment, etc., etc. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression of the room. (BTW, someone asked what region of the country I live - the Northeast US).
If I were to move the knee walls, it would really eat up most of the space. The room is 12' by 15' with two additional small alcoves. Plus, if someday I were to get really ambitious, I cold extend it into my Den (which is 15' by 15').
One of my other options, and the one I first considered, was to finish off another "Bonus Room" that the house has and use it (it's odd shaped, but has a total of about 250 sq. feet). It doesn't have the kneewall issue, but it would need electrical, heating/cooling, insulation, walls, flooring, etc. So, the expense and time to get started in there would be considerable, but in the long run, would be a much better area.
In another post, I'll give my "Givens/Druthers", background of my proposed railroad, industries I'm considering, etc. I've played around with the Atlas track planning program and sketching, but until I make a decision on the room, I won't be getting very far on that.
Thanks again!
Okay, I went in and took some more measurements. I can raise the height of the layout to 38" to 40" pretty easily. The problem becomes that my head hits the slanting ceiling and I have to stand quite aways back from where the layout would be. I would almost have to operate with my head leaning against the ceiling.
Thanks for the idea of picking a chair first. I think that is a very good starting point. With the right couple of chairs, I don't think sitting will be too big of a deal. In fact, it might be kind of nice.
A thought that comes to mind are the kind of stools that you find in artists' studios. They are available with casters, have a footrest and they are height adjustable.
Okay, here are my thoughts (to date) for my "Railroad". Keep in mind, I'm very much in the planning stage and construction won't be for several months (famous last words ). In fact, I just received three books today that I've been pouring through: "The Model Railroader's Guide to Freight Yards", "The Model Railroader's Guide to Junctions", and "The Model Railroaders Guide to Industries Along the Tracks". I also have another book on Realistic Operations ordered, but it's backordered right now. Also, other than books and planning material, I haven't purchased any equipment and don't plan to until I have a good idea what I want to do (other famous last words).
Mission Statement: A (fictional) shortline railroad with an interconnection to Kansas City Southern to serve the (fictional) towns and industries of western Arkansas and/or eastern Oklahoma in the 1960's. Most of the route is in a valley. However, there may be possible expansion into the mountians.
Name: Undecided, but leaning towards "Western Arkansas and Eastern Oklahoma" Railroad.
Possible Industries: Coal, timber, manufacturing, agricultural
Givens:
1) This is a small shortline that is doing okay, but with not a lot of extra money. The locomotives will be limited to a older switcher and a couple of older roadswitchers. Also, there will be very limited passenger service, probably in the way of a railcar.
2) The railroad will interconnect with the KCS and have a small yard close to the interconnect.
3) The layout will be an around the wall type with the possibilty of a pennisula.
4) There will be hidden staging for the KCS trains coming and going.
5) Because this is my first layout in many years, keep it simple, but at the same time make it interesting.
6) Operational reliability is high priority.
7) No duck unders, lift gates, helixs, etc.
8) Make operations believeable, with several industries to switch.
9) Control will be with DCC and all equipment will be DCC ready.
Druthers:
1) If not too complicated, design and construct a second branchline behind and above the lower level, as if it's going up into the mountians.
2) Possibly see passenger trains on the KCS system.
3) All wyes will be controlled with manual ground throws.
4) Possibly built own wyes with Fast Track system.
5) Although this will basically be an "out and back" type railroad, look for opportunity to have continuous running.
Okay, that's about it for now. I'm sure I'll add to this as I continue planning.
I've got the kneewall issue, too, and I need to share the room with the non-modelling segments of the family. I built a 5x12 table and put it on wheels. This allows me to roll the layout around a bit, to push it out of the way when the room is occupied by armies of teenagers, or pull it out when I need to get to the back side.
My layout is also at about the 38-inch level. I don't mind the height for operating, maintaining or just rail-fanning. I can stand or sit. I use tethered DCC throttles so I can walk around, and I've installed control-bus jacks in the fascia so I can move around with the trains.
A low layout allows you to reach over the foreground stuff more easily. The "standard" reach distance is a maximum of 30 inches. Since my layout is 60 inches wide, and I can get to it from either side, that puts the centerline just at that range. I'd have to say 30 inches is a pretty good "maximum" number, but as foreground scenery is added, it gets harder and harder to do anything that far in. Raising the layout higher makes the problem worse.
The thing I like least about a low layout is wiring beneath it. 2 or 3 more inches down there would have made wiring a lot more comfortable. As it is, I have to sit in odd positions and duck my head at the same time. Working a soldering iron behind a control panel under my layout is a strain on my aging body.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Everyone must play the hand they are dealt. In your situation I would set the benchwork as high as the knee wall permits and use the roll around chair option. One advantage to lower than normal is that you can reach farther back, so the "shelf" can be deeper. In fact, if you put a hand rail on the slanted portion of the wall, you can reach even farther back.
I saw one post in here that said he built lower so that the youngsters could participate. I subscribe to the opposite theory. Because the youngster is too short, I can put her on a stool where she can see but not reach the layout, give her a throttle that has been set to "Thomas" and she can play without hurting anything. By the time she is tall enough to reach without the stool, she will be old enough to be trusted up close.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
MisterBeasley wrote: The thing I like least about a low layout is wiring beneath it. 2 or 3 more inches down there would have made wiring a lot more comfortable. As it is, I have to sit in odd positions and duck my head at the same time. Working a soldering iron behind a control panel under my layout is a strain on my aging body.
By this I think I get you mean when you're working on it, not operating it.
If that's the case, have you considered making two foot jacks for the table then using your 'army or teenagers' to lift it up on the jacks?
On my triple decker, I use a barber's chair on wheels... permitting me to operate comfortably at any height....lol.....just kidding.
With regard to chairs for seating, you might want to consider buying a drafting chair/stool with casters on the legs that will allow you to roll around from place to place. The advantage of the drafting chair/stool over regular desk chairs with casters is that the drafting chair/stool seat height can be adjusted from 24" to 34" from the floor. With this height adjustment, you should be able to use it to sit at benchwork at greater heights, e.g., 50-56". This is just an idea to share with those of you who can't stand for long periods, but still want a relatively high benchwork.
Bob
Mudbug1001 wrote:One of my other options, and the one I first considered, was to finish off another "Bonus Room" that the house has and use it (it's odd shaped, but has a total of about 250 sq. feet). It doesn't have the kneewall issue, but it would need electrical, heating/cooling, insulation, walls, flooring, etc. So, the expense and time to get started in there would be considerable, but in the long run, would be a much better area.
Two larger-picture thoughts for you...
1st: You have noted that the other unfinished room is actually preferred, looking at N Scale model railroading, with a long-term lens, over using the bonus room.
2nd: You could begin modeling, "a module" if you will, in the bonus room. This layout could then be easily taken from the bonus room, and inserted into the eventual larger benchwork in the unfinished room after it becomes the finished room.
For example, in my case, an HO Scale plan from Model Railroader, The Chippewa Central, is being adapted to N Scale, for the Conemaugh Road & Traction, and; will go up against one of the three walls dedicated to the CR&T on the Lower Level. The carbarns will go where the original trackplan had stockyards. Pennsy tracks will also be run around this module, but connected to nothing initially. Both the CR&T and PRR will be expanded out from this core module with a real estate area of apx. 12-15 square feet, in a usable space of apx. 85 square feet.
By doing something like this, you could begin to sink your teeth into N Scale modeling, and; gain the time to have a luxury most model railroaders could only dream of...
Custom-building an unfinished room's benchwork & lighting with a specific fit to the expanded-layout, and nothing else. You may even have the ability to build an area for a separate worktable, and perhaps a nook with a cushy chair or two, a small tv, built-in model railroading library shelves, and fridge, to relax with friends while sharing your layout operating sessions.
On my new layout I'm using John Sterling shelving - it's OK out to about 24" wide shelfs. (There are other brands that are similar.) You'd be surprised how much railroading you can fit into 12" or 16" shelfs!! At this point I've put enough supports to be able to do 9' of shelf, and I'm testing different heights and widths to see how they'll work. I find standing for too long affects my back, so I'm leaning towards a two-deck layout where the upper level is more "hard" operating - point to point, lots of switching - and the lower level a continuous run loop for when I want to sit and just watch trains run.
At this point I find a lower level of about 40-42" is about right for me sitting down, gives me about the same angle of sight as the upper level at 58-60" when standing. BTW with a DCC system that allows for radio-control and with DCC-equipped turnouts, I figure I should be able to sit in one place and run the lower layout, since it will mainly be just running trains.