hey everyone, i was just reading tomisomething's reply in the turnout installation thread, and just had a (genius?) idea, and was wondering what you all thought about it.
Say you had cord roadbed installed. do you think it would be a good idea to lay duct tape sticky side up underneith the track? Obviously the track would be secured somehow, be it by adhering the smooth side of the duct tape to the roadbed or with track nails, but do you think this would be a good, quicker way to deal with ballast? This way no wet water or anything is needed; just pour and brush on the ballast. it can collect in between the ties just enough so that it wouldn't build up unnecessarily, as well with the sides of the roadbed.
thoughs?
loathar wrote:I guess I could see using that (or double sided carpet tape) around the switch points so you don't have excess ballast interfere with the point travel. It might work OK.
That's about the only scenario I could see for it. The problem I see is that ballast will only stick where it contacts the tape, making it impossible to lay down enough ballast to level with the ties and have it all secured in place. Having ballast level or near to level with the ties is the way I like to go for mainline track. Using less on brachlines and spurs is ok so it might work in that case. Using it around turnouts might be ok.
I've seen pleny of mainline turnouts that had lower ballast profiles than the adjacent mainline trackage. I suppose the RR's do this for the same reason us modelers do. As for securing the duct tape, why not simply stick it to the bottom of the turnout in question?
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
Ballasting around turnouts is one of the real challenges to even the best of us. This duct tape idea is potentially intriguing, assuming the tape does not lose its stickiness over time. Obviously a way needs to be found to keep the duct tape from also grabbing at the moving tie or moving parts of the points from the underside. This suggests that maybe a couple of pieces of duct tape might be needed with nothing at all underneath the moving tie rod or tie that makes the points move. Is that what you were thinking of?
I guess i would use black or brown tape or some color other than the silvery gray. Of course the only part of the turnout we are primarily concerned about is the area of the points to the frog and I assume the tape would be confined to that part. The prototype also keeps ballast away from the points for obvious reasons.
Sticking the duct tape to the bottom of the turnout before installation has the double virtue of ease of installation and you can cut it to exact size and shape using sissors before installation. You can also control keeping it away from the throw rod.
A few aspects to this idea strike me: any part of the tape that does not get ballast on it will attract something else, such as fuzz, insects, dust, broken parts, etc. So it pays to be thorough and generous with the ballast and then sweep or vaccum up what's left, rather than try to apply only exactly the amount of ballast you think you need. The old trick of using something that vibrates on the benchwork -- I use a palm sander w/o sandpaper -- makes the ballast snuggle down. But then you'll want to press down into the ballast between the ties, perhaps with a fragment of cork roadbed cut to size, to really make it stick.
Terry Thompson of MR has had some other ideas. One is to "cheat" by buying brands of turnouts that have the roadbed installed as an integral part of the track -- paint it and weather it to match the track. I experimented using the LifeLike LocTrack product that I found in a bargain bin and the idea can work but the LifeLike ballast profile is much higher than conventional cork roadbed. I have not tried it with the products from Atlas, Bachmann or Kato. Another Thompson idea is to spray the cork roadbed with the craft spray cans that create a mottled look (can't recall what the name of the product is called). It comes in gray and pinkish and there are commercial ballast colors that are close matches. True, it does not look like ballast but it does break up the appearance of bare cork (or black foam) roadbed.
An idea I had is to use very very coarse and rough sandpaper under the points of the turnout. If weathered the sandpaper can look like ballast but the rough texture tends to push up against the underside of the ties. So on balance I would say the rough sandpaper idea is a failure, and this duct tape and ballast idea comes closer to what I was hoping to achieve. But it was worth experimenting with.
Lately when I go to swap meets I buy a few cheap brass rail snap track turnouts -- often you can get them for next to nothing if there is no switch matchine attached -- to try out ideas such as these before committing to things on the layout itself.
Dave Nelson
twcenterprises wrote:I've seen pleny of mainline turnouts that had lower ballast profiles than the adjacent mainline trackage. Brad
I have seen that too. I wasn't thinking of this idea in regards to only ballasting turnouts though. In the case of ONLY using the tape for turnouts I thought it might be OK. I think it would have to be tried and left on a layout for six months or a year to see what happens to the tape. I know the tape loses some of it's sticky over time and it breaks down horribly in any amount of sunlight. I'm not sure how time and exposure will affect the tape.
I too have to wonder if the tape will contribute to restricting the movement of the throw bar on a turnout. I still question how really well secured the ballast might be initially and over time. Ballast that I have laid in the traditional fashion typically doesn't move anywhere and I have, (so far) only stuck the points on one turnout.
Track needs to be laid on the smoothest and firmest possible base. I don't believe those attributes are to be found in duct tape.
My plan for track laying (flex track) is:
1. Use a gray acrylic latex to fasten cork roadbed to 3/4 ich ply sub roadbed one inch wider than the cork (1/2 inch each side).
2. Round off the cork roadbed shoulders with a belt sander or surform plane. Sand the cork level with the belt sander.
3.Spray paint the cork with Rustoleum American Accents STONE speckled gray paint from HD.
4. Pre weather the flex track.
a. First coat - rail brown sprayed on the rail sides (protect the tops with vaseline or WD-40 wiped on). Follow with random rust and random black misted.
b. Second coat - spray railroad tie brown, straight down at an angle from each direction to paint the sides and tops of the ties. Follow with Medium gray, sprayed randomly cross wise and then a black randomly crosswise. Follow with a misted black streak between the rails.
c. Spray a fine line of rust over the tie plates and spike head.
5. Wipe off the rail head.
6. Lay the flex track in gray acrylic latex.
7. Ballast as normal.
All of the road bed can be prepped first, and then the flex is pre weathered in batches at the work bench which will make track laying go much faster, and provide a much more realistic result.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
I have seen projects railroads in MR where they have put black tape on the bottoms of the N scale turnouts, sprinkled ballast onto the sticky part of the tape and then shook off that did not stick. They then let the turnout float by being held down by the railjoiners from the adjacent tracks. It worked pretty good.
The other possible idea is to use a stone texture paint sprayed onto the roadbed where the turnouts are going and then lay the turnout down on the sprayed surface. You choose a color similar to your basic ballast. It looks like there is ballast under the turnout but there is no interference with the points. - Nevin
in regards to weathering flextrack, do you have to have an airbrush sprayer? I don't have one, and was planning on buying the pre-weathered ME code 70 flex track, but i love how some rails have the rust colored weathering done to the sides of the rails. My favorite example of this would be Bill Gruber's Reading Lines from the August '94 issue of MR (blast from the past what! haha). Picture 1 on page 57 has always been my favorite example of rust-colored track weathering; i think it looks amazing.
Question: for those of us who do not have an airbrush sprayer nor the funds to invest in one, is there anyone out there who you can send your track to to be weathered for you? Of course this would be a paid service, but I think using the circular cardboard tubes is a great way to ship flextrack and this could be used to ship the track to the weather-er and then back to the customer.
DeadheadGreg wrote: in regards to weathering flextrack, do you have to have an airbrush sprayer? I don't have one, and was planning on buying the pre-weathered ME code 70 flex track, but i love how some rails have the rust colored weathering done to the sides of the rails. My favorite example of this would be Bill Gruber's Reading Lines from the August '94 issue of MR (blast from the past what! haha). Picture 1 on page 57 has always been my favorite example of rust-colored track weathering; i think it looks amazing. Question: for those of us who do not have an airbrush sprayer nor the funds to invest in one, is there anyone out there who you can send your track to to be weathered for you? Of course this would be a paid service, but I think using the circular cardboard tubes is a great way to ship flextrack and this could be used to ship the track to the weather-er and then back to the customer.
I paint my track before installation using spray cans and I do the spraying outside. I use dull camouflage colors -- an olive green, a brown, a khaki-- from Krylon as well as red primer. With practice you get a nicely varied appearance, not quite as fine as with an airbrush but good enough for my purposes. A bit of oil on the tops of the rails before you paint makes it easy to remove the paint from the top.
If you are trying to match the Micro Engineering preweathered look, be aware that Micro Engineering sells plastic bottles of their patina formula -- you brush it on (Actually I use cheap Q-tips or cotton swabs) the clean rails and repeated applications give you the look of weathered rails (too few applications just looks greenish). This is good for turnouts where paint can gum up the works AND cause electrical insulation. The patina conducts electricity.
The negative is that as with the preweathered track that M-E sells, the top is weathered too so it really is not ideal for a busy track where the tops of the rail would be shiny no mater how dark the sides of the rail would be.
dknelson wrote:The negative is that as with the preweathered track that M-E sells, the top is weathered too so it really is not ideal for a busy track where the tops of the rail would be shiny no mater how dark the sides of the rail would be. Dave Nelson
When you have track that has been painted on top of the rails and there was no oil applied first is it ok to sand the paint of the tops of the rails with a fine grit paper?
I have yet to weather track but the info in this thread has inspired me to try it out. Thanks for the inspiration and any advice.
can you just use a bright boy to remove some of the weathering on top of the ME rails?
also, how many applications with a Q-tip are needed to get a good appearance?
First question, if the rail has been painted can you use fine grit sandpaper or emery cloth to get back down to shiny metal? Yes but introducing fine scratches onto the rail head is not good advice -- those scratches fill with crud. To repeat, I run a Q-tip lightly oiled over the rail heads before I do the painting. Assuming you get to it before the paint has totally dried it is a fairly simple matter to remove the paint with a rag, preferably with the rag wrapped around a block of wood so you only remove paint from the flat top of the rail head.
For stubbon paint I use a stick of balsa wood to rub at the paint -- the balse wood has just enough "tooth" to it to be mildly abrasive without scratching the rail head. There are also moist wipes at the hardware store that are meant to remove graffiti that have a mildly solvent paint remover in them, those are also helpful. If all else fails i get out a more powerful paint remover (and open a window or do it in the garage). The key is to make sure the paint removal is only of the railhead top.
Second question, can a Bright Boy remove the ME patina? No, not very readily as the patina is an actual chemical change in the metal itself. It is not a coating like paint but the actual rail material which has changed colors. If you patina it yourself it is easier to get down to bare metal with some elbow grease than it is with the pre weathered stuff from M-E itself -- they must really soak it a long time in the chemical agent. Again you are scratching the metal of the rail had which is not a good idea. It might be that some other chemical such as tarnish remover would work but I have not tried it.
In summary, I use M-E preweathered rail for lightly used spurs and sidings where the rail head would be rusted or dark. The main virtue of the dark railhad is that it conducts electricity which painted rail head would not
I use my own more lightly patina'd track, or painted track, for main lines and more heavily used sidings where the rail head would be shiny.
BigRusty wrote: Track needs to be laid on the smoothest and firmest possible base. I don't believe those attributes are to be found in duct tape.My plan for track laying (flex track) is:1. Use a gray acrylic latex to fasten cork roadbed to 3/4 ich ply sub roadbed one inch wider than the cork (1/2 inch each side). 2. Round off the cork roadbed shoulders with a belt sander or surform plane. Sand the cork level with the belt sander.3.Spray paint the cork with Rustoleum American Accents STONE speckled gray paint from HD.4. Pre weather the flex track. a. First coat - rail brown sprayed on the rail sides (protect the tops with vaseline or WD-40 wiped on). Follow with random rust and random black misted. b. Second coat - spray railroad tie brown, straight down at an angle from each direction to paint the sides and tops of the ties. Follow with Medium gray, sprayed randomly cross wise and then a black randomly crosswise. Follow with a misted black streak between the rails. c. Spray a fine line of rust over the tie plates and spike head.5. Wipe off the rail head.6. Lay the flex track in gray acrylic latex.7. Ballast as normal.All of the road bed can be prepped first, and then the flex is pre weathered in batches at the work bench which will make track laying go much faster, and provide a much more realistic result.
I like it! Not far off of what I do. Gray caulk work the best and if you ballast at the right time when the caulk it still sticky enough it will grab the ballast and hold.
--Zak Gardner
My Layout Blog: http://mrl369dude.blogspot.com
http://zgardner18.rrpicturearchives.net
VIEW SLIDE SHOW: CLICK ON PHOTO BELOW
DeadheadGreg wrote: Question: for those of us who do not have an airbrush sprayer nor the funds to invest in one, is there anyone out there who you can send your track to to be weathered for you?
Question: for those of us who do not have an airbrush sprayer nor the funds to invest in one, is there anyone out there who you can send your track to to be weathered for you?
BlueHillsCPR wrote: dknelson wrote:The negative is that as with the preweathered track that M-E sells, the top is weathered too so it really is not ideal for a busy track where the tops of the rail would be shiny no mater how dark the sides of the rail would be. Dave Nelson When you have track that has been painted on top of the rails and there was no oil applied first is it ok to sand the paint of the tops of the rails with a fine grit paper?I have yet to weather track but the info in this thread has inspired me to try it out. Thanks for the inspiration and any advice.
I do. Just use fine sand paper. A razor blade dragged down the rail heads works too.
I use Krylon and Rustoleum rattle cans to weather my track too. Follow that up with black, brown and rust colored chalks after ballasting.
Robby P- That stuff you described sounds like AMI Instant Roadbed. (black and tarry) It's a heating and cooling product used to seal duct work. Be glad you passed on it.
does anyone have a detailed suggestion as to get the rusted color on Bill Gruber's Reading Lines from the March '94 (i think... check above) issue of MR? its perfect... if someone could give a list of materials you use, how you do it, and maybe pictures of what it looks like, that would be insanely appreciated.
also, how would you use chalks on track?
DeadheadGreg wrote: can you just use a bright boy to remove some of the weathering on top of the ME rails? also, how many applications with a Q-tip are needed to get a good appearance?
Greg,
I used ME preweathered track on my layout, and yes the Bright Boy cleans the weathering of the top of the rails just fine. It does take a little effort, but it comes off.
As far as the ME weathering solution changing the chemical make up of the metal, I don't see it. The weathering is a corrosive, causes the surface of the rails to form a patina, that's all. Running the Bright Boy over the rail heads cleans the patina off.
If you use the ME weathering liquid on your turnouts, keep it away for the insides of the rails near the points and the area where the point rails pivot.
When I weathered my turnouts, I brush painted Floquil Tie Brown mixed with a litlle Tarnished Black. I used Floguil for this because Pollyscale is water based and will wash off when ballasting.
PS,
Greg, did you see my reply to your PM?
By the way, fellows, as part of preparing for an upcoming clinic, yesterday I gave the idea in the initial posting a try: that is, I put a piece of duct tape beneath a turnout (not touching the moving tie road and going to about the frog) and put ballast on it from above. I cut the duct tape to fit after putting it under the turnout, then laid the turnout. The rest of the turnout I ballasted in my normal fashion, which is to use Adhesive Caulk to lay the track rather than nails. I marked with Magic Marker were NOT to have caulk.
The thickness of the duct tape is probably very close to the thickness of the caulk so there seems to be no bump or irregularity. It actually works, in the sense that it looks convincing. How it will look in a few years as the tape adhesive dries out I cannot begin to know.