Hi all,First: it would be really cool if the mods would 'sticky' a thread containing links to posts/sites that answer basic newbie questions. It wouldn't stop the continual reasking - but it would give members a quick way to point them to their info. At some point I think I might try putting up a site with tutorials (hopefully with some contributed by folks on here), FAQs, and links that could help out newcomers - nothing fancy, just some useful info.
Second: I have a few questions about wiring that I'd like opinions on - your thoughts on the best practices involved. I've laid and wired some scrap track to test out a number of things (adhesive, roadbed, cutting, soldering, etc.) but still would like to get input before I begin doing the real thing on my rapidly progressing little (4'x1') n-scale shelf layout. So, here goes:
1) Buss and feeders: My NCE PowerCab manual suggests #18 AWG stranded wire for busses. I have this and am running it from one end of the shelf (where the plug-in unit is located) to the other. For feeders, I have on-hand and planned to use #22 solid wire. Does this sound like the right stuff or should I go larger? It works okay on my tests, but maybe there's something I'm not considering.
2) How many feeders: NCE suggests wiring up each piece of track. I don't mind doing this but that's a lot of feeders. Is it really necessary or 'just to be safe'?
3) Where to wire: Seems to me that soldering to the joiners is the easiest way to wire the track, especially if I'm following through with #2 above. If I wire the joiners then solder them to the track is that a good enough connection?
4) Multiple feeders at same spot on buss: Is it okay to strip a section of buss and attach more than one feeder to that section? If I do #2 above I'll have quite a few feeders and was thinking it'd be nice to bring in three or four at the same joint.
Well, actually, I thought I had more questions than that but I guess maybe I got it in 4. Any thoughts on these topics would be much appreciated. Thanks!M
mearrin69 wrote:1) Buss and feeders: My NCE PowerCab manual suggests #18 AWG stranded wire for busses. I have this and am running it from one end of the shelf (where the plug-in unit is located) to the other. For feeders, I have on-hand and planned to use #22 solid wire. Does this sound like the right stuff or should I go larger? It works okay on my tests, but maybe there's something I'm not considering.
Yes.
And, Yes.
OK, maybe I should elaborate on 1 and 2. 18 guage wire is good for about 8-10 amps or so. 16 guage would go for about 15 amps max. I would suggest 1 set of feeders every 6-8 feet. I would put them on the rail joiners, then solder the rail joint (every other joint, if using 3' sections of flex track). I would leave every other rail joint unsoldered, for expansion and contraction. Now, to be honest, on my current 4x8, I have only like 2 drops for the main, the rest of the feeders are for electrically insulated sections of track. On my next layout, I plan on wiring as described above.
Brad
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Here Goes:
1) #22 solid wire should be fine. From feeder to track is a very short distance and you are not going to loose much voltage drop...probably even hard to measure to accuracy to prove there is voltage drop.
2) I started my N-scale layout wiring every 6 feet or so...and now have gone back and wire every singly piece of track. It just stopped the little slow downs I was seeing. My advice, spend the extra hour it will take and do it now.
3) I always solder to the middle of each piece of track, just my preference as I found it hard to get the rails soldered together and have to do the wires all at the same time.
4) Not a problem at all to do multiple feeders from one spot. All you are concerned about is solid soldered connections and eliminating voltage drop (which you solve by the big buss wire).
Hope this helps
mearrin69 wrote: Hi all,First: it would be really cool if the mods would 'sticky' a thread containing links to posts/sites that answer basic newbie questions. It wouldn't stop the continual reasking - but it would give members a quick way to point them to their info. At some point I think I might try putting up a site with tutorials (hopefully with some contributed by folks on here), FAQs, and links that could help out newcomers - nothing fancy, just some useful info. Second: I have a few questions about wiring that I'd like opinions on - your thoughts on the best practices involved. I've laid and wired some scrap track to test out a number of things (adhesive, roadbed, cutting, soldering, etc.) but still would like to get input before I begin doing the real thing on my rapidly progressing little (4'x1') n-scale shelf layout. So, here goes:1) Buss and feeders: My NCE PowerCab manual suggests #18 AWG stranded wire for busses. I have this and am running it from one end of the shelf (where the plug-in unit is located) to the other. For feeders, I have on-hand and planned to use #22 solid wire. Does this sound like the right stuff or should I go larger? It works okay on my tests, but maybe there's something I'm not considering.2) How many feeders: NCE suggests wiring up each piece of track. I don't mind doing this but that's a lot of feeders. Is it really necessary or 'just to be safe'?3) Where to wire: Seems to me that soldering to the joiners is the easiest way to wire the track, especially if I'm following through with #2 above. If I wire the joiners then solder them to the track is that a good enough connection?4) Multiple feeders at same spot on buss: Is it okay to strip a section of buss and attach more than one feeder to that section? If I do #2 above I'll have quite a few feeders and was thinking it'd be nice to bring in three or four at the same joint.Well, actually, I thought I had more questions than that but I guess maybe I got it in 4. Any thoughts on these topics would be much appreciated. Thanks!M
m69:
You might find, if you buy #14 Romex cable and strip off the jacket, that #14 solid building wire is the cheapest way to go, cheaper than smaller sizes, because there's lots of it in use.
Attach your feeders to the bus however you want. BTW, buss = fuse brand, or kiss; bus = electrical component or transit coach.
I tend to think wiring every section, however short, is overkill. Put in as many feeders as you feel comfortable with, then add them if you discover problems. I don't find adding new feeders to be really that hard.
Hey, guys. Thanks for the guidance - good to know I've got it mostly figured out. Feeders will be quite short (<9") and the overall layout itself (1'x4') probably would only require one power attachment from the sounds of it (though I'm trying out a sector plate with two staging lines so they each need power too). I'll solder wire to the joiners and just go with that - no potential problems that way.
Thanks for the correction on bus/buss. I wasn't quite sure as I've seen it both ways and had never looked it up to see which was correct :) Hmmm, now I'm sure I'll be back when I can't get that friggin sector plate to work as advertised - seems okay now but I bet it'll be a bear when I get to setting up the track on it ;)M
Want more opinions? I'm in HO, not N. I use an NCD PowerCab DCC system, which sources about 2.5 Amps. I just finished a 4x6 foot section of a layout. I plan to run a 14-gauge solid bus beneath the table and wire my feeders to it. I think the feeders are about 20 gauge stranded. I wired or soldered to every piece of track (well except a crossing and a few very short sections of flex). It helps to understand the why's:
If a short occurs somewhere on your layout, you need very good wiring between the power source (DCC controller) and the short to allow the controller to "see" the short as a short and shut the current off. Also, if you are relying on a rail joiner somewhere to pass the current resulting from a short, and that rail joiner is making poor contact, it will heat up the area and can start a fire.
So, consider the amount of current your controller can source. With only a couple amps, you can use smaller wire. If you put in a very powerful controller, you need very large wire. Also, drop feeders from every piece of rail not soldered to one that does have feeders. For my layout, I soldered together quarter-circles of sectional track and dropped a single pair of feeders from each quarter.
I solder my joiners by cleaning, fluxing, and applying solder to the rail/joiner contact area on the outsides of the rails (i.e. two spots). I solder feeders by tinning and bending a 90 degree angle in the feeder and soldering it to the under side of the rail. I drill a hole in the bench directly below the rail for the wire to drop down through. After I ballast, I suspect they will be completely invisible.
Jim
mearrin69 wrote:before I begin doing the real thing on my rapidly progressing little (4'x1') n-scale shelf layout.
Power Bus wiring is for layouts that have lots of trains on them and some really long runs of track. Our club layout for example. The mainline is almost 200 feet long. It needs a bus because the nickel-silver track is such a poor conductor of electricity.
Texas Zepher wrote: Am I reading this right. You are putting a power bus on a layout that is four feet long?!? Why? Run two wires from the DCC unit to the track and be done. Maybe if you want to overkill it, run one set of wires to each "parallel" track. Power Bus wiring is for layouts that have lots of trains on them and some really long runs of track. Our club layout for example. The mainline is almost 200 feet long. It needs a bus because the nickel-silver track is such a poor conductor of electricity.
It might be overkill but, then again, it might not be. I'd just as soon do it as suggested by the manufacturer - that where I can be fairly sure there won't be problems later. The manufacturer and some on this forum have suggested that having every piece of track wired may result in better performance. I know for sure that the joiners in my Bachmann EZTrack setup weren't carrying the signal all that well.
And, this really is a 'test' project for me, so learning to do all of this stuff is part of the process because someday I'll be putting it to use on a larger layout.M
I use #14 wire for the buss, #22 for feeders, and I run a feeder to every piece of rail. I solder the feeders in the middle of the rail. I allow expansion joints at the joiner (credit card width).
Have fun, and keep going! Hal
Lots of good advice here. I hope nobody minds me adding my :
If you solder feeders to the rail joiners and then solder the rail joint itself, you risk loosening the feeder when you apply heat to solder the joint. With a little practice, it's not hard soldering feeders directly to the rail. #22 solid will work perfectly for this.
As far as multiple feeders to the same spot on the buss: The whole intent of the buss/feeder approach is to have larger wire (and therefore less voltage drop) for the longer runs, and have the feeders relatively short to lessen the voltage drop caused by the smaller wire. As an example, my feeders are never longer than 12 inches. If they won't reach, I extend the buss, not the feeders. However, depending on your track plan, that might not be an issue on a 4x1 layout. If you can keep the feeders short and still attach them to the same point, go for it.
Good luck and have fun!
HTH,Steve
Last night I attached feeders to 15 36" track sections. I figure if your using 3" sections why not attach every 3'. Using Atlas flex I noticed that in the center there is a spot that has no plastic tie joiners. I lay the track flat, upside down. I use a Weller 40 watt iron and .015 dia 63/37 LEAD solder with rosin paste. I strip the #20 feeder and lay the bare quarter inch on the bottom of the track a solder it. Natrully, on a curve you may have to remove a few ties so they don't interfere with the feeder wires. The .015 dia solder melts so fast your done soldering before any ties melt 90% of the time. I have not had a joint fail yet. After the rail is down I drill holes, not too tight, (to allow for expansion). The end result is feeders that are invisible when ballast is in place.
The solder is Kester .015 dia.#24-6337-0007. It's a fast freeze solder that hardens instantly when the iron is removed. .020 would work ok too. If your using 3' sections you don't need to solder any rail joiners on straight sections, no buckled rails from expansion/shrinkage. Curves are a different story. You need to solder joiners or end up with kinks, curves act differently with expansion contraction. They don't buckle, they change radius slightly.
Jules
mearrin69 wrote:It might be overkill but, then again, it might not be.
I'd just as soon do it as suggested by the manufacturer - that where I can be fairly sure there won't be problems later. The manufacturer and some on this forum have suggested that having every piece of track wired may result in better performance.
Since you are doing this for practice, I haven't seen anyone mention twisting the bus wires together. When the bus wires are twisted (as in ethernet twisted pairs) the magnetic fields they produce cancel each other.
Hey TZ,Didn't say you weren't right. You probably are but ,In the meantime, I'll go ahead and overkill it by following what the mfr suggested in the manual ("attach feeders to each track, don't trust the joiners"). I do appreciate your opinion on it though. I was actually going to twist the bus wires too, though it won't amount to many twists in 4' of length. Thanks for that suggestion, even if it is probably overkill too.M
I intend to bury my layout in wiring. That little extra will come in handy one day.
My engines will stutter when they get the chance. I dont intend ever to give them that chance. =)