Looking for examples of spurs in public streets

[Anonymous]

Im doing some research for my new layout, and I am looking for some photographs and information on rail spurs that are built into pulbic streets to serve industrial companies.

This would kinda be like an Interurban setup. I am thinking of making part of my layout a spur that comes down the middle of a street, and then makes short radius turns to serve small industrail custormer. On an HO scale layout, this would mean #5 turnouts, with 9" radiuses. I would be limted to running only 40' box cars, and the engine would have to be a short 4 axle switcher.

Are there any examples of rail roads continuing to operate these small urban spurs after the interurbans shut down?

[Big_Boy_4005]

The book Track Planning for Realistic Operation has a discussion of this topic. There have been articles in MR over the years too. Check the magazine index http://index.mrmag.com/ I would doubt that there are too many left, but there might a few. There is one spot that I can think of, near where I live, that still has some rails in the street, but most of that track is out of service. A couple of businesses still recieve rail shipments though.

[ndbprr]

Can't lead you to any pictures but the PRR Delaware branch runs down the center of Delaware Avenue in Philadelphia and services the piers. A whole class of PRR 0-4-0 switchers were built to service the tracks due to the tight radius into the piers. As a kid about once a year the nespapers would have a story about some drunk that would pick on the biggest motorcycle he ever saw in his life with his car at night. Naturally he lost. An A5s switcher looks as big as a road engine from the front. Many Interurban lines ran into cities alongside or down the center of teh road. The Pacific Electric in LA had hundreds of miles of track like that and would be a good place to start a search.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your replies. After doing some more research, I think I should go with a 2 axel switcher, like a Plymouth.

[Anonymous]

I work in Olympia WA, and there is a rail line that runs down the center of a street. It intersect through several cross streets, and also runs through a tunnel. Let me know if you'd like more info about it, I can take the digital camera in to work and get some pictures for you. Also, BNSF used to run these tracks. In the last month or two, I've been seeing a loco pushing through with a very different paint scheme and name on it (sorry, don't remember at the moment)

[Anonymous]

some pictures would be great. I am by trade a City Engineer, so I am interested in such things as the street striping around the rail lines, and if they make turn and turnouts within the street.

Have you noticed what kinds of switchers they were running on the tracks (2 axel? 4 axel?)
Thanks,
C. Alan

[Jetrock]

I've done quite a bit of homework on exactly this, and it is pretty much the focus of my layout (admittedly just a shelf layout right now.) In Sacramento, an industrial belt line went around the original city limits, but as the city expanded the belt line's paths were effectively industrial or residential city streets.

Downtown Sacramento is set up as a square grid of square blocks, with numbered streets running north-south and lettered streets running east-west.
There were several lines running through downtown Sacramento on public street tracks--SP had a line down R Street, serving various industries via in-street trackage, in addition to wharf yards along Front Street, its elevated line atop a levee at B Street, and its yards and shops. WP had a line parallel to R Street in an alley known as Whitney Avenue, in addition to their tangent north-south line on private right-of-way between 19th and 20th Street.

Two electric interurbans ran into Sacramento--Sacramento Northern and Central California Traction. Both ran freight and passengers as well as an in-town trolley line that ran separate from downtown Sacramento's local trolley company (Pacific Gas & Electric) until all were purchased by National City Lines. Their belt line (mentioned above) ran down Front Street (from the river wharf, and connecting with the SP and WP tracks there) to X Street, 31st Street (Alhambra Boulevard) and C Street, where it served several industries and industrial complexes--typically the mainline was in the street while spurs where cars would be set out were not in the street. Much of the area the line ran through was industrial but it also included single-family-home residential neighborhoods, public parks, a beautiful Art Deco theater, and shopping districts--with heavy freights sliding past, though most traffic was at night.

The SN's passenger line went through the center of downtown, though freights were strictly forbidden. The CCT went south through a maze of residential and business streets before reaching its own private right-of-way at Polk several miles south of Sacramento's city limits.

CCT de-electrified in 1946 and bought several GE 44-ton and 70-ton diesels. SN bought a gaggle of 44-ton diesels in 1946 but ran electric in Sacramento until 1953, at which point they gave up half of the Belt Line (the half which simply ran through town and didn't have currently utilized spurs for customers) and used parent WP's track to get to the other side of town. The in-street trackage of the Belt Line was still in use under diesel power until freeways were put in using much of the railroad right-of-way in 1966. At that point the 44 and 70 ton diesels were still in use, but SN had bought a few SW1, SW2, VO-1000 type locomotives, and derailments due to the sharp curves (too sharp for modern equipment) and heavier engines were commonplace.)

The SP and WP continued using their R Street industrial tracks until the 1980's when most were abandoned, and much of that right-of-way is now used by Sacramento's light rail system. The only in-street freight trackage still in use that is not private right-of-way or a grade crossing is a spur off the former WP north-south mainline onto R Street between 20th and 23rd that serves the local newspaper, the Sacramento Bee, to this day.

As to striping, I'm having a hard time finding too many details on that--for the most part, they typically had a yellow line at the edge of what would be considered the "safe zone" where one's car wouldn't get smacked by a passing train.

Here are a couple links you might find useful:

Sacramento Northern homepage:
http://pub176.ezboard.com/fsanfranciscogothicfrm25.showMessage?topicID=702.topic

Railroad map of downtown Sacramento, illustrating much of what I have described:
http://sachistoryonline.org/category/srecord.cfm?catalogID=629

Some images of the SN, including some of the Belt Line areas described:
http://www.trainweb.org/svhr/images/sn/sn.htm

Modeling-wise, I'd recommend Kalmbach's "Building CIty Scenery For Your Model Railroad" which has some good details on in-street trackage and city buildings, and doing some homework on interurbans--if you plan to model a diesel line which was formerly an interurban it's a good idea to have a picture of how interurbans did things. For switches I recommend Peco "Streamline" and "Setrack" turnouts--they're quite a deal sharper than #4 turnouts, though not as sharp as Richard Orr single-point turnouts.

Re: rolling stock, as I mentioned above, 44 and 70 ton GE diesels are a sure bet, but things like a Porter "Hustler", or a 23-25 ton mini diesel, or, conversely, an SW-series or Alco S-series switcher wouldn't be out of line--heck, later on in the period a Geep would fit just fine, and they *do* run on 12" curves.

9" radius? Ouch! I've had trouble getting 40' boxcars to go around 9" curves without colliding with each other, but if you have any hints on doing so I'd be happy to listen.

[Anonymous]

This is one of my interests as well. take a look at www.oldnyc.com, they have photos of various lines like this. The Jay Street connecting RR and the NY Cross Harbor RR are both described with virtual tours.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Great link Brit!!! I took the Cross Harbor and Jay Street tours. It would have been fun to see them in their glory days working those old cobblestone streets with all of that fancy tight track. I have a feeling that this is the kind of thing C. Alan is looking for.

One small hint: be careful typing website names, the comma got attached and caused the link to fail. www.oldnyc.com

Use the preview reply button, and you can test the link before posting.

[Anonymous]

Wow! These are some great links. The Jay street line in NYC is exactly what I had in mind.

Jetrock,
Thanks for the information on Sacracmento. I live in Wasco, just north of Bakersfield, so next time I am up there, I will have to visit some of the locations.
--C. Alan

[Jetrock]

Stop in Stockton on the way north--the Central California Traction still has a lot of industrial tracks in the Port of Stockton area, at least some of which are in-street...their current roster includes two GP18s, a GP7, and two SW1500's.

[denny99]

QUOTE: Originally posted by sav336

I work in Olympia WA, and there is a rail line that runs down the center of a street. It intersect through several cross streets, and also runs through a tunnel. Let me know if you'd like more info about it, I can take the digital camera in to work and get some pictures for you. Also, BNSF used to run these tracks. In the last month or two, I've been seeing a loco pushing through with a very different paint scheme and name on it (sorry, don't remember at the moment)

hi sav, I'm very interested in having the pictures of those tracks you're talking about. I'd be glad if you could send me some of them, thank you in advance.

denny

[eng22]

For a great picture of a spur in a public street got to: www.dtirr.com and scroll down.

[GerFust]

I believe there is one in Oakland, CA, that runs right past Jack London Sqaure (www.jacklondonsquare.com). You can find photos at:

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?city=Oakland&country=California,%20USA
http://www.daylightimages.com/trackside/bay4.html

-Jer

[Train1725]

Check out the web site "OldNYC.com" They have some pictures of old tracks in New York City running through streets and within concrete and asphalt. Good Luck
Train 1725

[Train1725]

Newbie mistake, i replied before reading the other responses!

[mloik]

Check out the following link. It has pictures and links of street running from all over:

http://www.mannresearch.com/lakewood/index.html

Michael

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks mloik, that's another great link. It was the article about Bill Denton's layout in MR that I was thinking of back at the top of this thread. I can't believe that it appeard that long ago.

[Jetrock]

Oakland had a lot of street trackage--the Sacramento Northern (same line that ran around Sacramento) had a yard at 40th and Shafter, with Key System trains going by on 40th Street.

[BR60103]

In the late 60s and for a while after, Waterloo and Kitchener in Ontario both had street running.
In Waterloo, the CPR ran on the old Grand River Railway (interurban) tracks down one street that served the Seagram's distillery. There was one track down the middle with a couple of spurs off it. The track was torn up after the plant was abandoned. They used small switchers -- for a while they had one of those side rod diesels.
In Kitchener, there was a track down Victoria street (near the CN station.) It had a few spurs off it to various buildings. This came out of an industrial section nearby. I never saw any operation on it. The switch controls were in between the points, lying in a trough in the road. Lid on it? They used double point switches. This track ended in the street and the industries had their spurs coming off in the wrong direction, trailing instead of facing.