Track power

[Anonymous]

OK, I thought I'd start a new thread since my RECOMMENDATIONS post has gotton so large.

Here is the question:  How do you ensure even voltage throughout the main line system when distances from the transformer range from a few feet to over 35 feet?  Is more than one power clip to the tracks required? 

Also, explaine how switches are insulated so that the spur running off the switch is controled by a seperate power source.  What happens when a train on the spur line crosses the switch and enters the main line? 

Class in session.......................

 

[kstrong]

Here is the question:  How do you ensure even voltage throughout the main line system when distances from the transformer range from a few feet to over 35 feet?  Is more than one power clip to the tracks required? 

The easiest way is to make sure you've got really good continuity betwen each rail joint. Simply relying on the press-fit rail joiners isn't going to cut it. You need a good mechanical connection. There are variouls methods for doing this. You can solder the rail joints themselves (permanent), solder jumper wires around the rail joints (semi-permanent), or use some kind of rail clamp or screw through the rail joints (easily reversable). Many folks suggest running jumper wires, but the cross-section of the rail is far larger than the cross-section of the feeder wires, so your voltage drop as you go along the length of rail will be less than that of the feeder.

Also, explaine how switches are insulated so that the spur running off the switch is controled by a seperate power source.  What happens when a train on the spur line crosses the switch and enters the main line? 

Class in session.......................

I recommend getting one of the myriad books on wiring your model railroad. Wiring is something that doesn't lend itself to forums, as drawings are absolutely necessary for proper interpretation. Fortunately, the wiring techinques that work for HO and N scale work just as well for large scale; it's just that you'll need a beefier power supply in the garden.

Good luck!

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

I run a G scale outdoor Christmas display which is up for about six weeks, so my remarks are based on that. I ensure good connectivity by using the LGB dielectric grease on all track joints. I also run feeders to four points on the layout. When assembling the track I look for weak/bent track clips and replace them. When the track is laid and electric connected, I run a shakedown with just a #2. I look for a flickering headlight and momentary stalls. When I see one I look for the cause and eliminate it. Doing this helps to have smooth running the whole season. Happy Rail Roading!
Bob

[Anonymous]

Yes well i can only endorse what has been said about continuity and voltage levels. I have about 200 m or 660' of track and you can go anywhere on the layout and the difference in voltage is not discernable; as brass track is an excellent conductor of electricity.

 i run DCC and having maximum voltage on all parts of the track at all times brings good conductivity into an even more prominent position..

As far as using the points (switches) to conduct electricity to certain blocks of the track; this is a well used and popular idea, which just switches one leg of the circuit to the required block section depending on which way the point is operated.

I personally do not support this idea; for my preferred method of use, as it ruins the points internal conductivity.

Rgds ian 

[Anonymous]

Thanks mate.  Not sure what you said but will file it away in the memory bank.  I think I'm going to just lay low for a while because I can't do anything until the Spring anyway.  My head is getting so full of tips, advice, how-to's and how-not's I can't keep up with it.

So, when I can get back outside and begin work you'll be hearing more from me for sure.  Thanks to everyone for all the help.  I've kept a "printed" copy of every reply to my questions so it wasn't in vain you may be sure............

Happy Railroading everyone!

 

 

[GP-9_Man11786]

I wired my railroad with 14-Guage solid copper Romex cable, the heavy-duty stuff they use to wire houses. I have feeders every five feet. I solder all the connections and coat the with Aristo-Craft electrically conductive grease to prevent oxidation and then put a wire nut over the joint.

This method requires a lot of long, boring and tedious work but the result is wother it. Your best bet is to have some friends over, throw some beer in the frideg and make an assembly line out of it.

[Anonymous]

Conductivity is measured in Mhos which is only ohms spelt backwards and it is the opposite of resistance.

You can do what you like but you will never under normal circumstances beat normal brass track for conductivity.

The problem is and always has been the joins in the track. I use 3.69m (12") track sections which means not many joins and what joins i do have except at points (switches) i use LGB joiners which are then properly soldered when they are new.

For points i use Hillman clamps, not he split jaw type they are toohard to get on. This is what is covered in the text book on the matter.

I regularly go over my track with a voltage meter and i cannot detect any worthwhile voltage drop across any of my joins unless in the rare event of a problem joint.

Regards ian  

[RR Redneck]

You are gonna need way more than one pair of feeders to the track to ensure uniform voltage.

[Anonymous]

More than one feeder is sorta what I was thinking.  When the time comes this is the approach I will use.  (multiple feeders)

Brass track for sure.  Joiners not sure about yet.  Will have to study some more on that subject. 

Thanks everyone...................(from a low and simple "Gandy-dancer") 

 

[GP-9_Man11786]

I should have mentioned that my wiring system consists of a circle wired as a paralel circuit(SP) with cenecctions to the power supply at opposites sides. Ultimatly I intend to solder the wire to the tracks directly. Should I use a torch or a resistance soldering gun for the opperation?

[Puckdropper]

GP9 man,

 

My LHS has 1' sections of Aristocraft track for $2-3.  You might want to see if yours does the same.  You can then try soldering feeders on to that section of track and see what works well for you.  Remember, metal conducts heat well so if you try to solder in place you might just have a big heat sink.

 

Conversely (a related question so I won't start a new thread), would using heatsinks like vice grips also serve to concentrate the heat in a specific area? 

[Anonymous]

The idea that you need multiple feeds to your railway is quite wrong; why would you? if barss rail is oneof the best electrical conductors you can get?

As stated previously i have about 200m or 660' track and i only have one connection and you can measure the voltage between the rails all over the set up and you always get the same about 22.7 V AC.

If this is so what would you gain from running wires to the rails.

If anyone disagrees with this i would like to hear some actual voltage drop figures ie put some facts too your opinion!

Rgds Ian 

[Mike Dorsch CJ&M r.r.]

I agree with Ian . I have brass track with only one feeder and there is no noticable drop in voltage . I don't think it would hurt to use more feeders but why go through the extra expense and work ? Hook up one feeder and then measure the voltage along the route and see if you need to do more . I would recomend a mechanical fastener at eack rail joint . I use railclamps myself and they have held up real good .

[ttrigg]

Ian;  
I'm beginning to suspect that this posting is a SPAM!!!!!
"14-Guage solid copper Romex cable", "feeders every five feet"  That is a lot of wasted time and money that could have better been spent on more rolling stock.  
I use the wire that comes in the "malibu light" sets for my power.  (Ian, Malibu Lights = 12 volt lights set along the sidewalk, Its a California/Yankee thing)  Yes there are connections at every turnout, siding, passing track, but that is because those are all isolated and can be switched to different power supply.  Main line power is applied twice, once at Rosebud Falls (5 foot (Ian: ~1.7m)  from the control station) and again at Green Apple Orchard.  GAO is 60 feet (Ian: ~18 m) from control station by walking across the lawn, however the engine must travel 532 feet of brass track (Ian: ~132m) to get from RbF to GAO.  I did that mostly because I did not completely trust my skills at connecting the track.  I use LGB "flex" rails, looked into getting the longer stuff but was not willing to pay that kind of freight charges.  When laying track I take two lengths of track to the wire wheel and buff them up, use the LGB slip on rail joiner between the pair and solder them, these double sections are then connected with Split Jaw Rail Clamps.  I have never experienced any electrical drop problems. 

[GP-9_Man11786]

Prior to rewiring with the 14-guage wire I had terible voltage drop from one end of the layout to the other depite having brass rails. I was merly copying the wiring paln from my O-Gauge club layout. I felt it was better to buy the best wiring and over-design the electrical system and not have to replace it a third time (the first time I used speaker wire, BIG mistake).

[ttrigg]

 GP-9_Man11786

"Prior to rewiring with the 14-guage wire I had terrible voltage drop from one end of the layout to the other despite having brass rails."

How far, give it to me in feet or meters.  I have 500 feet of track between power connections and have very little power loss.  

What kind of track connections?  Those brass slip on's with a little grease so they can slide off quicker?  Brass slip on with solder?  Some type of screwed clamp?  What?

How do you make the power connection to your rails?  I solder an "eyelet" wiring connector on the wire and pull one of the screws out of a Split Jaw Rail Clamp, pass it through, after shinning everything up nice and clean, tighten it back up, add a little flux, and a touch of solder.

"I was merely copying the wiring plan from my O-Gauge club layout. I felt it was better to buy the best wiring and over-design the electrical system and not have to replace it a third time "

Yes, I agree, it is better to over design than to under design, but why build the QE2 when the pond is only a stones throw wide?

"(the first time I used speaker wire, BIG mistake)."

YEP! Got to agree with you on that one, figured that one my self about 40 years ago.  Speaker wire is for some one else's speakers.  Not mine!

[Anonymous]

ttrigg:  Would you explaine how the switches are insulated, so that the spur line running off the switch is controled by a seperate power source.  What happens when a train on the spur line crosses the switch and enters the main line? 

If you understand what I mean?  Here it is another way:

Main line loop has two switches in it to allow trains to leave the line and enter a smaller secondary line with its own loop.  This inter loop has a spur running off of it that is a dead end line going nowhere.  It is used to pull trains off the loop and park.

The spur is not connected to the main power supply.  It operates on its own independent power source. The siding switch is insulated so that when power is applied to the main line the spur is not affected.  The engine sitting on the siding remains idle.

Now, what happens when you apply power to the spur so the "parked" engine can be pulled into the main line?  Will it transition smoothly accross the insulated switch and onto the main line with out stopping or reversing?  How does that work?   

Hope I've made myself clear.  Many thanks.

 

 

[Anonymous]

SRS this is pretty easy to do, you can remove an internal strap in the switch, so that one leg of the siding track is isolated. you then get a separate power supply with one leg in common with your main power supplly you then connect the other leg up to your siding and you have created what many refer to as an island voltage and this throttle for that section can be preste to any speed yoy like. When you throw the switch in retain direction it will remove power from thwat section you have controlled separately.

 As stated previously i am not in favout of this as it damages your switches. If you go to DCC this is not rquired.

Rgds ian 

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Iandor;  now explaine, in the King's English, just what is DCC?  How is it different from just DC?  And, finally how do you operate your switches in DCC, or DC for that matter?

Thanks.

[GP-9_Man11786]

 GP-9_Man11786

"Prior to rewiring with the 14-guage wire I had terrible voltage drop from one end of the layout to the other despite having brass rails."

How far, give it to me in feet or meters.  I have 500 feet of track between power connections and have very little power loss.  

What kind of track connections?  Those brass slip on's with a little grease so they can slide off quicker?  Brass slip on with solder?  Some type of screwed clamp?  What?

How do you make the power connection to your rails?  I solder an "eyelet" wiring connector on the wire and pull one of the screws out of a Split Jaw Rail Clamp, pass it through, after shinning everything up nice and clean, tighten it back up, add a little flux, and a touch of solder.

"I was merely copying the wiring plan from my O-Gauge club layout. I felt it was better to buy the best wiring and over-design the electrical system and not have to replace it a third time "

Yes, I agree, it is better to over design than to under design, but why build the QE2 when the pond is only a stones throw wide?

"(the first time I used speaker wire, BIG mistake)."

YEP! Got to agree with you on that one, figured that one my self about 40 years ago.  Speaker wire is for some one else's speakers.  Not mine!

The main line is about 200' roughly, but I only used the stock rail joiners. The track is Aristo-Craft and USA Trains and srews together. Hindsight is always 20/20 and maybe I should have used rail-clamps but I was a junior in high school when I built the line and made some dumb decisions.

[Anonymous]

SRS mate, I have explained it as easily as i can; this is a very simple thing but not so easy to understand if you do not have the stuff in front of you and can see it with your own eyes.

I use DCC; and i am a great adherent of it and if you follow what is happening in Germany, and more affluent USA, this is the way of the future.

A DC layout is referred to as analogue and DC Direct current is applied across the rails to control the speed and direction of your loco. This is done by altering the voltage or polarity of the the DC, very simple and it has been working for as long as there has been electric model railways. It has many disadvantages but it is understood by just about everyone and is cheaper to start but not in the long run.

However DCC is to do with Digital Control and in this instance you have full AC (Alternating Current) power across the rails at all times and in all places and this by itself is a tremendous advantage.

Each piece of equipment you have must have a decoder and as you send out commands from a central station you control these items by so doing through the decoder. You can run as many trains as you like on the same set of rails and they can all be doing different things. As well you can conrol as many on board functions as you like on each loco individually. i do it with up to 8 functions, on say 4 locos at once.

As well i also control 8 sets of points (switches) through the rails, all remotely; 2 of the sets are in parallel so they both operate together. a changeover network and a siding.

Best of all, you will be open to a whole new world of control, that you cannot even dream of, such as automation, reversing loops, computer control, mimic panels and it jsut goes on.

Almost everyone on this forum will disagree with me but i think it is the only way to go!

Rgds Ian 

  

[ttrigg]

ttrigg:  Would you explain how the switches are insulated, so that the spur line running off the switch is controlled by a separate power source.  What happens when a train on the spur line crosses the switch and enters the main line?
If you understand what I mean?  Here it is another way:
Main line loop has two switches in it to allow trains to leave the line and enter a smaller secondary line with its own loop.  This inter loop has a spur running off of it that is a dead end line going nowhere.  It is used to pull trains off the loop and park.
The spur is not connected to the main power supply.  It operates on its own independent power source. The siding switch is insulated so that when power is applied to the main line the spur is not affected.  The engine sitting on the siding remains idle.
Now, what happens when you apply power to the spur so the "parked" engine can be pulled into the main line?  Will it transition smoothly across the insulated switch and onto the main line with out stopping or reversing?  How does that work?   
Hope I've made myself clear.  Many thanks.

Easy enough.  

But first let me say this, I use the 1.5m lengths of LGB track, I solder two sections together, using the LGB slip on rail connectors, so effectively I'm laying track in 3m sections.  I use Split Jaw Rail Clamps (SJRC) to make all of my "in the field" connections.  Split Jaw is the brand carried by my local hobby shop (here after referred to as "LHS", Hillman also makes a very good clamp and I'm sure there are others out there.)  Split Jaw Clamps have a large piece of brass that spans the one side of the rail joint, on the other side of the rail are two smaller pieces of brass that clamp together by two screws, thus giving a very solid rail joint, both mechanically and electrically.  The taper on the inside of the clamps makes proper and absolute alignment almost idiot proof, (which is of great importance when I do anything, if there is any way of screwing something up I'll find it.)  All switches (turn outs, points, etc.) are held in place with SJRC, main line direction of travel with the standard clamp, the turn out with the SJRC isolator clamps, (the brass on the "running side" is replaced with some form of non electric resin) I attach the turnout power wire directly to the screw on that side of the clamp.  Take a look at their site  http://www.railclamp.com/

When a train arrives at a switch it stops, waits for the conductor to walk forward and throw the switch,  (my switches are electric remote) meaning the train stops, I throw a switch from the branch to the main line, and another toggle switch from branch line transformer to main line transformer. Since the SJRC's hold the track in perfect alignment I have no problems with train movement.  The only time this can get confusing is when entering the yards at Rosebud Falls, then the question becomes which of the three transformers is active?

Another advantage to rail clamps is that you can "lift out" a switch (turn out/point) without disturbing your track, just loosen the six screws and lift it straight out.  Perform your needed maintenance and just drop it back in, tighten the screws and you are back in business.

I know there are ways to "de-power" one side of a switch (point/turn out) by cutting/removing parts but I choose not to do it that way.

The key thing when installing SJRC's (or any other brand) is a good clean connection. I have a 22 cal. rifle bore cleaning brush that I've "trimmed up" so that I can scrub the inside of the clamps.  Since I store all my "new" track outside so that it will weather up nicely before use, I take it to the workshop, scrub down about an inch of the ends with the wire wheel on my grinder.  Put the rail into a little jig I made to hold it in alignment for soldering.  Presto, a 3 meter section of rail ready to use.  (The soldering jig:  8 ft 2x4, on one narrow edge I ran it across the table saw twice to cut a slot, then in the middle I cut out a 2 inch square piece.  The track lays nice and straight and I have access to solder the track joint. Before using the jig, I had to unsolder five joints because I did not get them straight.)

I do not use the standard curved pieces when a siding track runs parallel the main line.  I just use my track bending tool to get the curve I want and put the 3 meter length of track down.  This causes my joints to be staggered, thus make for even smoother running.  I figured this one out when I ran N scale 35 years ago.

If you are using the standard off the shelf 12/18 inch sections of straight and curved track, and the standard slip on rail connectors, then yes, you may need to run a big bunch of feeder wires.  You are probably continually "tightening" up all of your track joints.  As you can afford it I would suggest converting to the longer "flex" track sections and a good rail clamp.  Then you will find that your track maintenance need will drop severely and you will find yourself with more time to run the trains!  

When you make you choice of "flex" track, take into consideration all of the properties each one has.  I chose brass because I did not want little trails of shinning silver running through my garden.  After trying LGB, A/C and USA brass rail ( in the 12 inch forms) I liked the way LGB weathered.  I know there are tons of arguments about the pro's and con's of each, I made my choice solely upon its ability to "self weather."

Another nice thing about using the longer track sections, I like the looks of the A/C "re-railers" as "level grade crossings" but not the rails, no problem, pull out the screws throw the rail and screws into trash can, pass a 3m section of track through and keep on working.  Same goes for the LGB "remote uncouplers", pull off that 6 inch track and slide on a 3m section and continue to lay track. Doing things like this has reduced the number of rail joints in my GRR by the hundreds.  Each non-soldered rail joint is one more place for a mechanical or electrical problem.  The fewer the number of joints the fewer problems possible. 

[ttrigg]

Sorry, but I do tend to get long winded when I'm asked a good question, and have a good idea of what the other guy is doing.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ian;

You responce has triggered new questions in my mind about DCC control.  I will post those questions in the proper forum, not in this one.

Let's assume however, I will not be able to set up my layout using DCC control.  I will instead probably go with conventional design and will require some of my sidings to be insulated against the primary power source on the main line. 

I will be looking for resources on this subject.  Any hints would be appreicated.

 

Regards,

 

 

 

 

[tangerine-jack]

Tom, take it easy buddy, you're not a spring chicken anymore.  You might need that wind for the next installment of the newsletter.

SRS, methinks you think too much, and I mean that in a good way.  Sometimes we just have to go outside and get our hands dirty and see what works by doing.  It's perfectly acceptable to change your mind and your plan as you progress.  The key is to START, set up some track over the winter and experiment a little, you'll learn very quickly what you like and dislike.

[Anonymous]

Tom:  Wow, what a responce.  I have printed a copy for my files so can refer back to it when construction of my RR begins.  I think I'd like to do

DCC but afraid the cost will be too hight for me right now.  I want something simple so I can GET STARTED, if you know what I mean....

Phase one will be one small loop just to get things rolling.  Expansion later on, phased two, will see a larger outer loop with tunnels, bridges, and other features.  The inner loop (phase one) will then have some sidings added for parking and what ever else I can think of.  It will also have connecting lines joining it to the phase two outer circle.

But for now, phase one is all I can do...............still, getting my ducks in a row is important and that is why I am asking so many questions.

Thanks to all of you who have offered your advice and or experience...

 

 

 

 

[ttrigg]

SRS;

Here is another hint with phased construction.

If your overall plan is the oval (dog bone, crossing double loop or whatever) then install the switches (turnouts/points) in phase one that will be used in construction of phase two and so on.

In my case, I started with a basic oval around the Koi pond.  In the oval I installed the switch that eventually became the yard, and the expansion loop out to Vine Arbor, and the switch that is becoming the bridgework up to the top of the water fall.  When I expanded out to Vine Arbor I had both switches in place and did not have to disturb any existing track to lay the new track.  At the end of the loop at Vine Arbor is another pair of "stub end" tracks that became the expansion loop on out to Rosebud Flats and eventually on out to Green Apple Orchard.  

Now when the "Train Master" decides to "run the trains" she can get what she wants.  Her idea of running trains is "Make this one go there" "make that one go away for twenty minutes", so I just open up the switches to Green Apple Orchard and slide the throttle down to position 3, and the train will leave Rosebud Falls in route to Green Apple Orchard and stay gone for about 20 minutes.

No matter what you do for your GRR, the most important thing is to get out there and play in the dirt.

[Anonymous]

I support what has been said here, get out and get somethoing going round and go from there wherever you interests and pocket cantake you;

Rgds Ian