New to GRR need some help...

[Anonymous]

Im currently 17(few days to 18), living with my grandparents in southern California. My grandparents 60th anniversary is upcoming, and i have simply got to do something with their back yard, family from all over the world are coming, and a corner of our yard looks like it belongs next to a haunted house.
Lucky for me its all just over grown plants , and the remains of what used to be a Gigantic Koi pond. which sould take me about a weekend to take out. My grandma insists on keeping that pond which is a cracked up cement di***hat leaks water like a siv. The pump guzzles electricity, and its an all around peice of..... So for her anniversary i was going to tear out the pond, and start fresh. I have loved trains since i was a little boy, and my grandmother herself has expressed interest in them at one time or another, so i figured that i can incorperate a small garden train into the design. I'm figureing on about 60ft of track, however its a simple estimate, and is probably off by quite a bit. i have done HO layouts before(never garden, mostly tables) The design im putting up is what i think will look nicest, it involves a small waterfall from a higher pond, where the first bridge is, and a large long tressle across the main body of water. Tunnels arent necessary, however I feel that it adds character, as well as a more natural terrain look. The design and build preocess is pretty much set, however i am concerned about the weather in our area. During the winter and "June Gloom" we get a fair amount of rain, and i am not to sure about having electrified rails sitting outside in water. Another Question of mine is that im hopeing for a steam engine(electric) pulling more modern looking passanger cars which are not quite as short as those beggining kits- Whats the smallest readius turn i can safely make?
Another few questions im sure most of you have heard before-

1. I plan to buy a kit with a starter track set,beyond that, how much will it cost to get up to about 60ft of track?
2. My HO scale trains are extremely light, and are known for falling off the tracks of the train turns to tight, or if thre s to little weight in the middle, and to much in the back, are these trains a little more stable? can i trust that these trains can cross a bridge that has no siding wilhout falling off?
3. Some of the Smaller HO engines really get up and smoke around the track on its own, but wont move witha large load , where as some of the trains are slow but powerful enough to pull a large train up a 15 degree hill. Because my design is in a cramped area, my track varies about 20" up and down, with the incline/decline at about 4-5 degrees. With only 3 cars, will an engine be able to handle that?
4. Im afraid that my train can get stuck or derail in a tunnel. is there any way to prevent this? i was considering cutting a v in the bottom of the tunnel for drainage, and suspending the track over that, however im not sure if there's a better way.
5. Maintanace- my grandmoter is 82 years old, and cant handle much, i will be moving off to college in about a year, and will have to leave my precious train set behind. The train will run on ocasion, when family and friends are around, but not on a daily basis. Is ther a certain requirement to keep the engines operable? Also, how heavy are the engine, and cars?

(This is a basic design, the ponds will not be perfectly round, nor will the track follow that exact route, however it will be as close as possible)
http://sirsack.com/Richards/Track%20Layout.jpg - for a better image


Any Help is appreciated

-Richard

[cabbage]

Richard,

I think the long bridge over the larger of the two ponds is unwise given the age of your grandparents. Although my father at 87 stilll drives his motor car at motorway speeds -he is a little shaky with his cup of tea.

Run the track around the edge of the larger pond.

regards

ralph

[Capt Bob Johnson]

The trick with tunnels is to keep them short enough that you can reach in and get it should you have a derailment. Some use those clamping arm things that are made for older folk to get boxes off the upper shelves in the pantry, others sometimes use a boathook! You could also have a removeable access hole cover in the middle! I would try not to have tunnel on a curve!

Sometimes you can give the illusion of a long tunnel by having a short foot or so of tunnel leading into a deep cut and another short tunnel on the other end for it to come back out!

Considering grandma's age, you might also want to consider raising it 2 or 3 feet so she wouldn't have to get down to put a train on the track and play when you're away! Another way to provide for this would be to have a tunnel long enough to cover the projected train and use some 4" thick upholstery foam to stuff the portals so that the train could be stored right in the tunnel and creatures and weather couldn't get at it!

[vsmith]

Richard

Hello from another SoCal resident

I use R1 (4foot diameter) curves just fine but I also chose smaller rolling stock. Trouble is that the modern streamline or heavywieght cars require 8 foot diameter to operate. That would leave you with just a basic loop so maybe a compromise is in order. Aristo sells Sierra type passenger cars while not modern do have vestibles and look reasonable behind most modern engines. I would recommend no smaller than 5 foot diameter curves, 6 foot recommended.

I dont think you can do an effecive over and under in the space provided. I was planning to do one also but even with a minimum of 8" vertical clearence at the crossover I found I needed about 20'-25' of track to make an effective grade between to the crossover. On your plan you only have about 12-15' giving you a 5% grade! Thats a mighty steep grade! Even at 20' of run thats a 3.3% grade. 2% is best. You do have enought room to do something fun for your grammy!

But I too would consider a few things mentioned above, namely raising the layout about 18 to 24 inches, so its your G-parents dont have to bend over so much. And tunnels should be no deeper than you can easily reach from either end to fetch a errent train. IOWs 15-18" x 2 = 30-36" any deeper requires an access portal on top.

[Anonymous]

Ok.. thanks for the help, i did some simple redesigning of the layout, and removed the larger trestle across the water, however i did change the lake a bit, and put a trestle over a portion of it, but i think the design is overall much nicer now. Also, im considering using O-Gauge which i beleive is slighly smaller. and can cut the turns tighter. I also changed my mind on the passanger cars, they really dont fit the theme of my yard, so shorter cargo cars are fine. Besides that my tunnel is shorter relieveing an issue. Also, the tunnels will only have about 2-6 inches of dirt over them, so i dont think that it will be a big deal to access the tunnels if needed. As for my grandmothers abilities- my aunt and uncle visit about 3 times a month, and they also happen to have a garden train in the build process, so i am sure they would have no issue helping her. Myself moving to arizona with my father in about a year are both licensed pilots, and have easy access to aircraft, so we will be flying down back to So. Cal pretty much every weekend. either by helicopter, or cessna. So im sure that we i'll be abe to keep it somewhat under control.

Id take some pictures for ya, but my grandmother decide to take my pants sitting next to my bed, and put them through my laundry, which destroyed my camera and cellphone. so as soon as i can get a replacement ill gladly show you what i have to work with as well as my progress.

In the mean time, heres the redesign-
http://www.sirsack.com/richards/track%20layout2.jpg

[vsmith]

Nice changes

You'll stil neded more run to clear the crossover without having a steep grade.

If you extend the inner circle of track , at the point of cross under and cross over, more toward the bottom of the page to create an inner oval, you gain more lenth and will reduce the grade. Too much grade and your loco's will spin their wheels or go out of control on the down grade..

[pimanjc]

My Daughter and grandkids built what is essentially this same design [without the water]. They used 4ft diameter [R1] turns. Based on their experience, I would recommend a minimum of 5ft diameter [or larger] curves. The grade level is extremely critical at the crossover if you don't want frequent derails.
JimC.

[Anonymous]

After modeling it in autocad to see what all it would include, the grade isnt a actualy as bad as i thought it could be, it shoul work out to be about 3.5% grade which is steep ( i know) but with only 3 or 4 cars being pulled im sure ill be okay. I spent some time today and broke out a large section of the origional pond, which turns out is 4 inch thick cement neted with chicken wire... needless to say my sledge had a workout today.
In about a week or so Ill be removing two trees (overgorwn bushes) that are in my way, and leveling the land. From that point ill be ready to landscape. Any Ideas where i can get a good O-Gauge set for a reasonable price? id prefer not to use Lionel becasue the three rail track thing isnt exactly what im looking for.

-Richard

-Edit-

the second picture i posted is a little messy because i did it in paint.. here it is a little more accurately. The section where the tracks cross is not a crossing, but an over and under. The smaller bridge is elevated to about 16-20" above ground level. to be next to a waterfall, where as the larger bridge is about 2" above the ground, and 5" above the waterline.
http://www.sirsack.com/richards/track.jpg

[cabbage]

Well -can I introduce you to the very English scale called 16mm? I have been using it for several years and there is one other member who uses it -he is in Japan. It is the de facto scratch builders scale and runs larger than G or F locos on O gauge track..

The track I use is PECO SM32 -but I know others who swear by Tenmilles track.

Click the home page icon and have a look at 16mm -maybe you will like it.

As to the camera and phone problem -well that is the problem with progress. I still use the TLR from my teenage days and being deaf - I don't have a phone!!!

regards

ralph

PS it is my birthday soon as well!

[vsmith]

Well good luck with it, I still think you'd be better off getting that inner loop down to 2% but hey, go for it! I would suggest to test run your trains BEFORE you permanently attach the inner loop track down, just in case you do need to decrease that grade, also allow you to determine where your grade transitions will need to be and to make sure the trains roll thru them OK...and be sure to have fun doing this, that is the whole point isnt it!

[Anonymous]

I made a major mistake in my modeling, and realize that now, and it should mean a serious change in the grade.. The Good way. Since im not home im not sure of the change, but ill get it to ya asap.
Im pretty sure that the train will handle it considering that ill only be pulling 3-4 cars. Ive seen some of those engines pull rather long sets up a good incline.
Also, my incline is a longer area with less grade, its the decline thats a little steeper.Ill definately test the trains abilities before i bolt the rails down. To double check it works.

Ill post some pics here pretty quick. for ya

[vsmith]

When I suggested as simple as extending the inner loop into and oval this is what I had in mind. Its still be steep ( 3.5% likely) but better than +5%.



This is one of the biggest headaches with large scale in small places, theres never enough room to get good grades for an over and under.

For 8" vertical clear, to get a 3% grade you need 22' of run on each side of the crossover point.

rise/run= gradient rise =8", run = 22' x 12" =264" 8"/264" = .0303 = 3%

2% needs 33' of run! on each side!

Even 4% still needs 16 1/2 ' of run each side. On a small layout thats alot of real estate!

[ttrigg]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson


I would try not to have tunnel on a curve!

OK Capt Bob; are you trying to tell me that I am a hard headed old coot, for designing and building a tunnel, under water, and on a curve?

In my case it was a predetermined limitation of the available ground and I DO NOT recommend it be done again. It can be done, but the "test bed time" is almost a year to ensure that everything works according to plan before putting the roof on the tunnel.

Richard;
Listen carefully to what Capt Bob and Vic are telling you. Some say I have been very lucky in that the only derailments inside my curving tunnel have been caused by collisions with the dogs. I like to think it was the ten months of operation before putting the roof on the tunnel and the water fall above that. The grades become more important the longer the train gets. I know you said only 2 or 3 cars, but, as we have heard so many times in that old potato chip commercial, "you can't eat just one". One engine and a couple of cars will soon either start collecting dust in the attic, or will soon multiply exponentially in the garden. In a years time three small cars from a starter set can easily become a dozen or more longer cars.

Rules of Thumb
1. If you cannot reach it with fingers, the tunnel is too long.
2. Plan grades for service ten years from now, after the starter set has had time to breed!

[Anonymous]

Well the length of the actual train is up to my grandmother, becasue she is the one in charge after im dont completing it. I am simply supplying the starter kit, and track. its up to her for anything else. As for the tunnels, i should have no problems reaching the train if it does derail underground, as you can see my latest design has shortened the tunnel by quite a bit. However the idea of making the loop larger is definately one im considering.Im just not sure if the terrain can expand to fit that or if im going to have to put in some sort of bridge.
Either way, that area is part of the decline, so im not as worried about the grade there. I just discovered that a large section of a dirt hill i had to move is a jumble of concrete, granite, and lavarock, and my sledgehammer is not enough force to break it, so i have to chip away sections. whih will suspend my progress a bit. I alkso have two trees to cut down, but i think i can get my dad to help me out on that.

till then, im just smasing away at the concrete.

[ttrigg]

Good Luck!!!!!

Remember we like to look at pix of the projects under construction.

[Anonymous]

IUd love to post some pics, but my sledge broke today,adn started to clear the overgrown bushes and i found a dying possum, and had to put it out of its misery with my bb gun. so im not sure if pictures are necessary at the moment. I did manage to get a new camera, however i need a memory card for it, so by this weekend i should have some pics for ya.

[FJ and G]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ViperDude

IUd love to post some pics, but my sledge broke today,adn started to clear the overgrown bushes and i found a dying possum, and had to put it out of its misery with my bb gun. so im not sure if pictures are necessary at the moment.

LOL[:D]

[Anonymous]

Well hopefully this weekend im gonna get a jackhammer out here to rip the rest of this junk out, then borrw a buddies chainsaw to take down whats left. So hopefully by the end of saturday i should have a level surface to start on. As for the engine and cars, ive found a perfect match for my motif.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/catalog/image/products/90058.jpg

i may add a caboose or another car, but thats exactly what i was looking for, It is G gauge, but i widened my turns a bit to releive the pressure.

[piercedan]

Be sure to add 1 ounce of weight to the front truck of the Bachman 4-6-0. Mine never derailed after doing this.

I actually used approx .5 ounce at each axle of fishing lead weights.

[Anonymous]

Greeting from Japan ViperDude!

Welcome to the forum. Sorry to read you are going for G scale but as a 16mm or 2foot narrow gauge enthusiast I have to say that Ralph knows what he's talking about!

I guess ther isn't many using 32mm track in the US. Though I do know a few.

Sounds like you are well on your way.

Best of luck, Matthew [bow]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Richard

Hello from another SoCal resident

I use R1 (4foot diameter) curves just fine but I also chose smaller rolling stock. Trouble is that the modern streamline or heavywieght cars require 8 foot diameter to operate. That would leave you with just a basic loop so maybe a compromise is in order. Aristo sells Sierra type passenger cars while not modern do have vestibles and look reasonable behind most modern engines. I would recommend no smaller than 5 foot diameter curves, 6 foot recommended.

Would you mind if I ask if you have a picture of your R1 garden pike? Would love to see it!

Regards,

Thomas M.

[Anonymous]

MatthewFoster you wouldnt happen to speak japanese would you? Ive taken a few years of it, but i think my teacher made most of it up.

[Anonymous]

Well the area i plan on working has been leveled out, however my camera was put through the washing machine, and no longer works, so i ant show you until i get a new one. Ive tried to do some work, however the weather has been reaching into the high 90s, and its hard for me to get anything done. i guess itll have to wait till the weather cools down.

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

personally i reckon the Aristocraft Rogers is a good powerful loco for a small layout - will pull 11 boxcars on flat and has pretty good abilities on bends and grades.

From personal experience make sure your track is level across the width as close as you can get.

Looks a nice track plan  but would reccomend you run as slow a gradient as possible to improve pulling power..

To save  grandparents  a lot of work  go for a good solid trackbed especially if you get heavy frosts .

[Anonymous]

Just finished my railroad with Aristocraft track using R1  - mainly because of limited space (large dog and small child)Past experiences of flex track on tight radii were not good , ok the transition eggect is lost but I can live with that.