Wednesday after probably less than an hour or so of running, and probably only half an hour since the track cleaning car did it's thing my train just came to a stop in front of me for a few seconds then started up all by its self. I was running a double headed GE 44 ton USA T engines and about 4 cars including a search light car. The light on the search light car never dimmed. I cleaned the track by hand and it made no difference. This section of track is on a slight down hill, about 1% and I was using a new powersupply.
I can understand the wheels getting dirty and the train stopping but why would it start up all by its self? Why did this happen and will this damage the engines? It happened a few more times before the rain started and I had to bring everything in.
Jaime,
A few basic things to check besides the dirty wheels or track
-your power connection to your power supply (also check the fuse in your power supply)
-your power feed wire, is it a good heavy gauge wire?
-your power feed connection to the track (also, how many feet of track and how many power feeds)
-your rail to rail connections. If you are using usa or aristo rail joiners are the screws tight? If lgb are the joiners tight? Also check for corrosion at these spots with brass track. The weight of the passing locomotives may be flexing a spot up and down causing intermittent connections. Also may be time to do a little reballasting to stop the flexing.
-Brian
Brian,
I have thought about what you wrote. I have new connections with a much heaver guage wire. One feed goes to the rails about 2 feet from where this happens. The track is new this spring/summer so I am assuming the screws are still tight. The one place I have questions about the track connections because I had to cut the rails I have no problems, and this whole leg has new ballast as of a few weeks ago. I will try playing with it some more this weekend. It looks like after tonight we wil bave a few days of good weather.
Don U. TCA 73-5735
I found when I put my layout in spring last year I had to reballast a couple times until it settled in well. I still need to touch it up now and then. Also I retightened the rail joiner screws a couple of times and even found a few missing. This year all were still tight. Consider replacing the joiners with rail clamps in spots with cut rail or trouble spots. Good luck.
There is no thermal overload in USA dismals.
The searchlight car remaining on tells us the power pack did not trip.
When this happens, using a voltmeter with probes, touch the sides of the rails under the loco.
Seen this more times than I can remember, almost always a joint failing electrically under the load of an engine.
Carrying Curmudgeon's analysis a bit further, (his experience shows since most experienced tecnicians know to *always* troubleshoot the simplest possibilities first...), did the engine always stop near the exact same place (track section?)...or did it tend to fail near any other sections as well? Stopping in the same place almost guarantees that an electrical connection is opening up with engine weight (i.e., a track joint when we're using track power or also possibly a feed wire connection if one happens to be near the trouble spot).
Good Luck
-GB
oh sure! Give Dave all the credit!
Yeah, that rotten old so-and-so.
Why does he get all the credit?
Have you tried running the loco's independantly? Double heading needs loco's that are well matched on starting voltage and same speed. You have also been cutting track, have you drilled and tapped the track to take the Aristo bolts? Aristo sell the the drill and tap and they are cheap. Also well worth checking the rest for tightness, they do work loose. Agree with everything else said above.
Kim
altterrain wrote the following post at 07-09-2007 2:40 AM:
oh sure! " border="0" width="15" height="15" /> Give Dave all the credit! " border="0" width="15" height="15" />
Well OK now he doesn't get *all* the credit since your post (and the others) also discussed very real potential problems - which should be considered.
My perspective comes from being a former tech for Xerox copiers. I learned after a few years to reach for the "low hanging fruit" first to expedite my average service time per call. This worked like a charm since, on the average, the simplest issues were responsible for more failures than more complex issues. I can't say for sure how that axiom translates to model RR engines (not much experience with the innards of these things yet but have read volumes on these forums), but his approach struck me as a great starting point. Of course, one can start troubleshooting anywhere. As any of these posts are - its just my 2 cents' worth (maybe not worth that much)
This is an interesting link.
Problem: loss of power? or loss of voltage? Voltage drop? How did it restore its self?
Did both locomotive lights go off? If not then "a" voltage remained on the track. (remember, most lights are at full brightness at 5 volts but you need 8 volts to move a locomotive)
Did only one locomotive lights go off? Then one failed and couldn't pull the other.
If power is lost, does it stay off long enough to measure the voltage both at the track and at the power pack? Everyone should have a Muilt-Meter.
Is there anything on the locomotive or any car that could cause a short? Check the insulation on the car axels.
(formerly on a "Help Line" of one of the nation's largest companies )
"I was running a double headed GE 44 ton USA T engines and about 4 cars including a search light car. The light on the search light car never dimmed."
Bets are high there is a joint between the searchlight car and locos where it all stopped.
Bad electrical joints in track, especially track not secured to some rigid basework, can and does fail, and while sitting will slowly compress that track, and the joint re-makes, and off you go.
Seen it.
Too many people have believed that floating your track is good, and that the cheesy litle screws in the fishplates are all you need.
I solved it over 15 years ago and never looked back.
While Jaime searches out all these possibilities I have a question for Dave. Did you "solve" the power continuity problem with "Split Jaw"-style clamps and/or some rigid base for the track, or was your conversion off of track power to battery power the solution to which you referred? Or something else?
From what I have read across 6 forums (yes I know that still deos not replace umpteen years' experience that Dave and Brian and many others have) it seems that a lot of folks use the "float" method. They apparently don't complain of having too many problems but that it requires a varying amount of ongoing maintenance to maintain level track depending on climate and how well the original installation was tamped down before track was laid. Electrical continuity seems to depend on the strength of mechanical connections between track sections, surface conditions on the rails, and in some cases - multiple power feed points (control blocks notwithstanding).
Given the number of posts and periodic articles describing new methods of building a rigid sub-base for trackage (composite board "ladder" track base, concrete blocks, vinyl downspouting, etc.) it would apear that the ongoing search for track stability that includes electrical reliability continues for a lot of folks who aren't ready for the costs and technical challenges of conversion to batteries. That would include me too.
They don't complain as they don't have any experience otherwise.
I recall several local roads where at a "meet" locos rolled onto their sides at curves.
Owner knew, said just jam ballast under the outside.
Not my job.
My RR is elevated, some track right on the edge up to 4' or more up.
I don't need track moving and trains crashing into canyons.
I looked at the cost of clamps, wiring, track cleaning cars (and the time nvolved) and went radio/battery over 15 years ago and never looked back.
Looking at the costs involved of folks doing special roadbed to keep their track in lace, for electrical reasons, is amazing.
When you clamp rails, they cannot expand into slip joiners, rather the whole railroad grows and shrinks.
Sometimes a LOT.
Former owner of Sunset Valley (local) finally gave up and removed all clamps.
Tired of the track pulling off the benchwork.
Seriously.
OK Dave fair enough.
I hope this isn't going off-topic too badly since much of the discussion here includes track stability.....understanding that you use batteries instead of track power...but to keep your trains from "rolling onto their sides" or crashing into canyons" (good mental images generated there) what method of track laying *do* you use?
Hey, did you remember to pay the electric bill???? (I couldn't resist that one!)
Seriously though, after having read this thread several times, I think Dave has the most likely answer!
On the other hand, I know someone who bought an RS-3 and it got into some start- stop - rest awhile antics. They called Aristo, there have been some problems with some, and they were told to pack it up and send it in for the fix! Might pay to call USA and see if they have been getting any problems with the 44 tonner!! I'd like to know if they have as I just got one!
Friends don't let friends run their trains on shoddy track work. That's like inviting everyone over for dinner when you know your only toilet isn't working!
I have been very happy with my stainless track. I have had very few electrical issues. Most were minor issues that are just part of the learning curve last year. This year I have had no issues with my track power. When I added my new loop expansion it ran great first time right off. All of my track is floating with 75% stock rail joiners and 25% rail clamps. I did do my track laying a bit differently this year learning from last year. I dug down to grade needed mostly hard pan soil and put down a base of a couple of inches of 3/8"-1/2" gravel ("chips"). I put down the track on it and secured an occasional spot with landscape pins (you do have to check them now and then as they can work up). I heaped on stone dust ("crusher fines") ballast and watered it in well. The combination of the gravel with the watered in fines makes for a very stable base.
I also had a 20 section of raised track in the new loop. I used the PVC (Tuf board) board and 1 1/4" pipe support ladder frame system. I really like this system and installed 50 feet of it for someone else (about a day's solo work but will be faster next time). The only problem I had was using the glued block joints in 8 foot diameter curves (no problems on my 10 foot curves). The tighter curves snapped the joints so I had to use cut down hunks of pressure treated wood and screws which worked fine. I found it really nice to establish the grade with the support pipes, attach the first rail and then attach the second rail making it level as you went along. It can be painted, camoflaged (plants, rocks, etc.) or even back filled with dirt or gravel like I did with mine.
BTW - I saw the vinyl gutter system from JDK. I'll give him an "A" for inventiveness but my feeling is this will be a failed experiment.
The question on what's best for laying track depends very much on where you live on this planet. In the UK I have never had a problem with my track floating on gravel and track maintenance - for me - is part of the enjoyment of the hobby. The bolts in Aristo track give very good electrical continuity and do away with the need for multiple feeds, I use clamps for my radius 5 switches so I can lift them out when I need to without disturbing the rest of the track. The UK suffered floods a couple of weeks ago and the water table here in Blackpool put part of my track under 2" of water, no problem, a couple of bags of gravel and it now stands above the flood line. It's each to his own with track, but I now have to ask, after all this advice, do you still have the problem with the double header?
Cheers,
I would like to thank everyone for their replies. I found one problem with a Split Jaw type rail joiner and I will be running more home run wires to two sections of track hoping for a fix (one near the split jaw joiner). Then this past weekend my RS3 started doing it at a different spot...
I am afraid I will be awhile till I solve the problem(s) - Saturday evening I fractured my left leg bone (the smaller one) near the ankle and have a torn tendon. So I will be on crutches for a while. Thanks
OUCH!! Very Sorry to hear about your leg, Jaime, but sending speedy get well wishes your way! Your not supposed to get injured while playing with your trains. Anyway, it sounds like you have started to discover some track issues that will be solved as you focus in on firming up the ballast/underlayment and inspecting the "electrickery" connections.
Hope the leg heals quickly for you.
Thought it may be worth mentioning. I was having a similar problem with an Aristo U25-B. It would just shut down, oddly enough at the same spot on an R1 curve. The voltage display on the Bridgewerks remained lit at about 10 volts and no short indicator. Tried pushing the engine through the curve- nothing. Out of frustration I fed more power to the engine and it took off like a racehorse. I can't pull any cars with the engine due to the R1's, however the engine itself goes through with no problems. It's probably a quirk with this particular engine, but until it warms up, I have to race it around a few laps then gradually draw back the throttle to a more reasonable speed. If I draw back to much, it will stall at the R1 again, and dispite removing the engine and replacing at another location on the pike, won't fire up again until I boost the power again. Guess what I'm trying to say is it could be specific to your engine. I use Aristo brass, split jaws at all joints, free floating.
Good Luck with the engine and hope you have a speedy recovery!
Stack.
I would have ventured a different answer if it had been an Arsito.
Some of the new ones have polyswitches in track feeds, and a LOT of solder joints you might want to look at.
But, not USA.
I would like to thank everyone for their concerns about my injury. It just goes to prove that it can be and is dangerous to work on or around rail road tracks and rail road yards. Even ones in your back yard. Maybe if I was wearing those steel toed boots... I hope to get some pictures I took before the accident up of the new section that was giving me the problems (not that you could tell anything from the photos).
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