Large Scale And DCC

[GearDrivenSteam]

I am familiar with On30 and DCC since I have an On30 layout. I must admit, when I first began to learn about DCC, I thought it was great. Now, I'm not so sure. The best DCC loco I have is an On30 Bachmann Climax. It does run really well compared to my Shay. I have sent the Shay back to Soundtraxx and they replaced the built in Tsunami decoder. It was exhibiting stalling, skipping and sound recycling problems. It still does the same thing. All of the locos that I have installed the LC decoders do the same thing, and I hear similar responses to other fellow model railroaders. Do large scale DCC conversions exhibit the same problems, or do they react differently? I am beginning to think my best bet is to just stay with DC.

[cacole]

Your symptoms sound like dirty track and dirty locomotive wheels more than a problem related to the use of DCC, especially if you're running outdoors.  That's why I use only battery power for my G-scale trains.  Unfortunately, we don't have that choice in the smaller scales.

[GearDrivenSteam]

All of my On30 stuff is indoors. All of my track is NEW and has been cleaned to the inth degree, same as the wheels on all of my stuff. I too, as you, thought the dirty track wheels thing. Thought it was a simple fix. I was wrong. I have thought of battery power, but am not sure I would like it....but that's probably because I am just not familiar with it at all.

[stanames]

Robert

 Perhaps you could provide a few more details such as track used and system used.

 What may be happening is that the decoder is sensing an overvoltage.

 For what its worth I have a large outdoor layout with 20+ locomotives in DCC.  Works great!

http://www.tttrains.com/sjrp

 I also have quite a few using Hybrid Drive which adds a small battery pack to the decoder so that it both reads the DCC signal and can operate on all track conditions.

http://www.tttrains.com/dcc/hybriddrive

Stan

 

 

[TonyWalsham]

Stan,

With the greatest respect, don't you think it would be appropriate to state in your postings that your wife is the Lenz DCC distributor in the USA and you are a member of the NMRA DCC panel?

That way, any reader would be fully informed as to your involvement in DCC.

[stanames]

Tony

Sorry thought most people knew that.

Former founder and chair of the NMRA DCC Working Group
Former NMRA C&I Chair
Former member of the NMRA Internet presence committee
Former NMRA Northeastern Trustee
Former Chair of the Large Scale Standards Working Group
Former Chair of the NMRA DCC Bi-directional committee
Donated patent with key technology to the industry through the NMRA
Still consulting (at no charge) to several model railroad manufacturers on a variety of topics
Still married to Deb who among other things is the president of TTTrains Inc and  manages the Lenz Agency of North America
Still proud father of two kids (one of which models is N scale)
And enjoying immensely building and operating my Garden Railroad

Hopefully that covers it all.

But none of the above is really relevant to this thread.  What we are trying to do here is help a fellow modeler find and correct a problem he is having with a locomotive.  Hopefully with a little more information this can be accomplished.

Stan Ames       [e-mail]

[Jim Agnew]

Robert

  For what its worth I have a large outdoor layout with 20+ locomotives in DCC.  Works great!

I'll second that. I've been running DCC outside with no problems for over 7 years. Jim Agnew

[spikejones52002]

Thank You Tony for the insite.

Advise is only as good as the person giving it.

To many PORK barrel projects cost the uninformed and ill advised.

I lost and/or WASTED of money making a big investment and installing LOCOLINC into my "G" gauge engines by unknowingly visiting a salesperson layout.

Best advise is to travel around to clubs or open house layouts. Find out what they use and how it works. Some will even let you try it.

Do not be afraid to ask questions even pointed ones.

IT's your money.

AS for battery operation. It has a lot of draw backs. Charging, run time, battery size, placement, available power, connection from battery to engine, idle battery run down.

[GearDrivenSteam]

Sorry about the late reply. Somehow, I missed my own dam thread. Remember....what I am referring to with all the problems here is my On30 layout. Operating system is the Digitrax Zephyr. It runs DC locos, and those with the Tsunami great on the zero address. WHen I change to DCC though, the problems for some of my locos becomes very evident. All of the ones I have converted to DCC using LC decoders and the Shay with the factory Tsunami exhibit stalling, skipping and resetting the sound cycle. My track is spotless as are the wheels. I am no electrical genius, but my soldering skills are above average and I can diagnose problems well with a volt ohmmeter. Not saying the problem is not something I have done, just that I don't think it is. I am open to suggestions, though. I'm almost not worried about it though, a sI am in the process of changing my On30 layout to 1:20.3 anyway. I was just wondering if the large scale stuff exhibited the same problems with DCC as I have encountered with On30. From the sound of some of your replies, no.

[Ray Dunakin]

That's an awesome layout, Stan!

One thing I'm learning is that ALL the technologies for powering and controlling LS trains have their fans. Some guys swear by track power, others swear at it. Some like batteries, some don't. Etc., etc. All these technologies have their advantages and disadvantages, and it's just a matter of finding which one best suits the individual and his/her specific needs.

[stanames]

Robert

I am a little confused by your posts.

Is the problem you are having with the Bachmann Large Scale 3 truck Shay with the OEM Soundtraxx decoder or is the problem you have on your ON3 layout using a Soundtraxx Tsumani decoder.

 Your Zephyr system does not have suitable voltage or amperage to operate the Large Scale 3 truck shay which is why I ask.

From your last post I would assume it is with your On30 layout.  If so this is perhaps the wrong forum.  You might get better answers on the yahoo digitrax forum or the Soundtraxx forum.

 The problem you report are likely a pickup problem in the locomotive or over amperage on your system.  I can not say for sure with the information you have provided The best way to check for this is place a small bulb across the track inputs inside your locomotive.  If it light blinks the decoder is not always gettig power and will reset.  A extra capasitor on the decoder will also kelp a great deal with these problems.

If you intend to use DCC on a new Large Scale outdoor layout I would highly recommend stainless steel track.

Stan

 

[GearDrivenSteam]

I thought I had made that clear. Sorry if I have not. The problems I am having are with my On30 layout. I am merely asking if anyone can attest to the fact that large scale DCC might work better.

[Greg Elmassian]

Large scale DCC will not run any better than On3 DCC.

But your On3 is not running right for some reason. Since all your systems seem to have the same problem, I'd look at the supply, booster, wiring, i.e. something in common for all locos.

I have a moderate sized layout outside, 450' of SS track, run NCE DCC, since I need beefy decoders and I like their controllers. I have no need for battery backup of anything, runs great.

Regards, Greg

[GearDrivenSteam]

That's just it. They don't all run bad. My On30 Climax with factory Tsunami sound runs great.

[devils]

The problem you are having with the On30 sounds like my initial problem with a Bachmann chinese QJ I fitted with a tsunami when I ran it on a layout.

I had a Bachmann EZ command which ran it fine on the test rollers but it was often jerky and random on track in starting off. A mate wondered if it was the low power of the EZ unit and when I ran it on a higher output system it ran fine so I upgraded and left the EZ as a test bench only unit as I want DCC for sound mainly.

Do you know anyone else locally who has a DCC layout with a different controller you could test them on?

I use DCC in G scale and have no problems with contact or sound apart from when someone bought a non certified RC controller (for the UK) and it wiped all the addresses on the locos as we were using a European RC frequency. Problem solved by educating the chap in the illegality of his system!

[GearDrivenSteam]

Large scale DCC will not run any better than On3 DCC.

But your On3 is not running right for some reason. Since all your systems seem to have the same problem, I'd look at the supply, booster, wiring, i.e. something in common for all locos.

I have a moderate sized layout outside, 450' of SS track, run NCE DCC, since I need beefy decoders and I like their controllers. I have no need for battery backup of anything, runs great.

Regards, Greg

I don't see how large scale couldn't help but run better, and in every respect. Larger diameter wheels give large scale a larger electrical contact patch with which to draw current. Heavier weight locomotives give large scale a better ability to stay in contact with the track and provide greater traction. I think this would show up even greater with the addition of DCC, since this requires even more current draw. I'm just guessing though, since I am certainly no expert.

[GearDrivenSteam]

The problem you are having with the On30 sounds like my initial problem with a Bachmann chinese QJ I fitted with a tsunami when I ran it on a layout.

I had a Bachmann EZ command which ran it fine on the test rollers but it was often jerky and random on track in starting off. A mate wondered if it was the low power of the EZ unit and when I ran it on a higher output system it ran fine so I upgraded and left the EZ as a test bench only unit as I want DCC for sound mainly.

Do you know anyone else locally who has a DCC layout with a different controller you could test them on?

I use DCC in G scale and have no problems with contact or sound apart from when someone bought a non certified RC controller (for the UK) and it wiped all the addresses on the locos as we were using a European RC frequency. Problem solved by educating the chap in the illegality of his system!

[Greg Elmassian]

Robert, I made the assumption that most O scale layouts are indoors. Probably a bad assumption.

Yep, larger contact patches, heavier locos, should all help. When I started about 9 years ago, I was told that DCC would not work outdoors. I'm glad I did not listen, but looked at the situation logically, as you have.

Regards, Greg

[devils]

The problem you are having with the On30 sounds like my initial problem with a Bachmann chinese QJ I fitted with a tsunami when I ran it on a layout.

I had a Bachmann EZ command which ran it fine on the test rollers but it was often jerky and random on track in starting off. A mate wondered if it was the low power of the EZ unit and when I ran it on a higher output system it ran fine so I upgraded and left the EZ as a test bench only unit as I want DCC for sound mainly.

Do you know anyone else locally who has a DCC layout with a different controller you could test them on?

This is the first idea that actually may have merit. I may try to find some with an O/G DCC set and try it out. Thanks.

 

The tsunami also requires more power for programming than basic systems will output, which is what gave us the hint, it's evidently heavier on current on start up so if it keeps cutting out and restarting, your jerky running and sound keeping resetting, then it seems to be stuck in a cycle.

Eliminating the simple things often works rather than assuming the chip is bad, main problem is lack of troubleshooting info from manufacturers.

I've got two tsunamis in On30 locos too and they work and sound great.

[dwbeckett]

After reading this thred I think I will not convert. but is there a decent sound sound system that works well with DC, track or battery power-system only. I ask only because I have too many engins to convert all of them. and yes I have thought of using a sound car. but since my wife gave me a pair of hearing aids i think sound following an engine would not work for me.

[GearDrivenSteam]

Don't let my troubles guide you. I have the absolute WORST luck when it comes to anything. Just recite Murphy's law, and multiply times 10. That's me. I am confident that whatever my problem is, is probably USER defined. But then........is that really confidence?   LMAO