Need DCC advice on Pinetop layout

[Rex in Pinetop]

After reading a bunch on this forum and links from this forum I'm heavily leaning towards building the Pinetop R&S GRR layout in DCC.  Here is a picture of a sketch of my layout.

 http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/RANichols_2007/SRGRR084.jpg

What I'd like to do is start a train from the yard (block A) and go up the helix (block B).  Next I'd like to follow the first train out of the yard, up the helix, and park it on the siding at the saw mill.  The first train would continue on through the reversing loop at the mine (block C) and head on back down the helix.  The second train would then proceed through the mine loop as soon as the first train has cleared the siding.  Now I've got two trains running in opposite directions on the same track block with the second one going through the reversing loop and back to the same direction on the helix block before the first train clears the helix.

The second thing I'd like to do is have the first train come down the helix and go into the lower dogbone in a clockwise direction and go into the siding.  I'd like to have the second train come down the helix and go into the dogbone in a counterclockwise direction to pass the first train and continue back to the helix.  The first train would start back up after the second train passes and go on up the helix.

Is this possible with DCC?

Rex in Pinetop

[rpc7271]

To put it simple...Yes, it is very possible. There would be no absolute need to cut it up into blocks but you might want to cut it up into 2 or 3 blocks so you could shut down 1 or 2 blocks to troubleshoot problems.

[cacole]

Yes, it can certainly be done with DCC but you're going to need auto-reverse modules at each end to avoid short circuits as trains enter and leave the reverse loops.  With DCC you won't need to break your layout down into blocks except for ease of troubleshooting, as already mentioned.

An even simpler solution would be battery powered radio control engines instead of a track-powered DCC system.

I belong to an HO scale club that has a large layout which can be operated using either conventional DC block control or DCC, and a home HO scale layout that is DCC only.  After my experiences with trying to keep track clean enough for reliable DCC operation on these indoor layouts, I decided on the AirWire900 battery-powered wireless DCC system from CPV Products, the makers of EasyDCC in Richardson, Texas, for my G-scale outdoor trains and I haven't regretted it for one minute.  I never have to clean track because there's no power at all applied to it.  Reverse loops don't matter with battery power, but can be a major problem with DC or DCC control.

My G-scale trains can even run without track, although I don't do that.  Therein lies the biggest drawback to battery power -- if your engine derails, it just keeps running until you shut the throttle off.

[sawdust]

For garden RR, I highly recommend battery/radio control!  I now use Airwire 900 and 14 volt battery in my LGB Moguls and 12 Volt gelcell in Big Haulers all with Phonex sound (perfect match).  Now my only problem is plants growing over the track, locos push leaves and most trash off the tracks and spider webs out of the tunnels.  You can run several trains with the same throttle slight problem when you change back to another loco, you have to adjust speed again.  This is my opinion from West Texas.....     Sawdust

[Rex in Pinetop]

Thanks for the advice.  I was pretty sure it could be done with battery power and I may end up going that route when all else fails.  I'd really like to try DCC though so if its feasible I'm going to try that first.  Any suggestions on how to wire this layout up?  I hear I'll need at least 2 auto reversing units.  Anything else?

Thanks,

Rex

[two tone]

Hi Rex I agree with whats been posted, can I surjest you do one section first get it up and running this will let you iron out any problems and is cheaper on replacing any bits that might short circuit . Hope this does not happen. Good luck with the layout keep us posted on progess

[cacole]

For the auto-reverse modules on my indoor layout I use the PSRev from Tony's Train Exchange.  With 8 Amps capacity, it can easily handle G-scale locomotives.

As for your question about what else you will need, that depends on the current draw of your trains.  Primarily, you'll need a DCC power booster with at least 10 Amps capacity, such as the North Coast Engineering 10 Amp Power Pro.

A good source of NCE equipment is Bruce Petrarca at Litchfield Station right here in Arizona.  He may also be able to provide the PSRev, even though it is an exclusive product of Tony's Train Exchange that is actually made by NCE.

Before investing several hundred dollars in a DCC system and then discovering that you can't keep the track clean enough for reliable operation, my suggestion would be that you try to find people who have experience with both track powered DCC and battery power in the vicinity of Pinetop if you can, and ask them about the effects of weather on outdoor operation.  Any decoders that you install in locomotives for a track-powered DCC system will have to be changed if you later determine that you want to use battery power and radio control, so deciding which system to use is most critical from a financial standpoint.

[Greg Elmassian]

I run DCC outdoors. I have several friends in AZ who run outside, from Phoenix to Green Valley.

I would recommend stainless steel, just for less maintenance, but you would most likely have no bad oxidation problems with brass.

Due to the temperature extremes in AZ, I would recommend SS over brass. Long straights may need "expansion tracks", sections of track that telescope in length, made both by Hillman and Split Jaw. I would use Aristo SS unless you can afford the excellent H&R stuff (double the price). Get SJ stainless rail clamps, don't even bother with the Aristo joiners, again you have temperature extremes.

There is a new autoreverser by DCC Specialties, the PSX-AR, that has features superior to all other autoreversers for large scale, check it out on Tonys Train Exchange.

I'm grinning at all the people who told you to go wireless... non of the suggestions address your original question about automated train control! Guys, I know battery vs. track is always a great controversy, but heck, how about answering the poster's question?

On your remote stuff, try KAM industries for your software to program the operation.

On the DCC system, you might want transponding to help the automated control, that would point you at Digitrax. I have NCE and love it. Lenz is also quality stuff. Don't go less, they won't have the functionality you need.

My suggestion is to talk to Matt K. at KAM industries and see what path he recommends to get to where you want to go, his software interfaces to virtually all DCC control systems.

Regards, Greg 

[Rex in Pinetop]

Guys, 

Thanks for all the comments.  You've all been very helpful.  I have purchased 100' of SS track for the helix, another 240' of brass 5' straight track, 200 Split Jaw clamps, and an EasyBend DuoTrak rail bender to add to the 250' of salvaged LGB brass track and 11 switches I have on hand from my previous roads.  Your suggestions have been that yes I can do it with DCC although it will require some additional parts and maybe some software.  Several of you have strongly pointed out that battery power is a very viable option.

I've made contact with a fellow GRR operator up in Showlow (about 10 miles from Pinetop also in the high country of Arizona).  He told me track maintenance for track powered systems in our area was very high.  When I mentioned kids being my primary audience he reminded me that they have short attention spans and get frustrated when things don't go right plus they usually want to do things "right now".  These attributes would not be helped by marginal track maintenance on the 500' of mainline track in my layout.  All of this equals one large vote for battery power R/C.

I also did a side by side cost comparison with 3 locomotives and a powered tender, 2 reversing loops, the desire to have 2-3 kids operating at the same time (3 throttles), and of course the 500' of track.  I randomly selected an on-line ordering site for prices.  The battery powered R/C option came to $760.  The DCC option on the low starter end came to somewhere around $752 for 1 shared throttle starter set with the reversing moduals, a power supply, and one additional booster.  The comparible DCC system came to $1294 for something with 3 R/C throttles.  That doesn't include the needed wire.  #10 wire at Home Depot is $98 for a 100' spool  #16 runs $52 for a 500' spool.  A two wire mailine bus comes to over a $1000.  The difference in expense equals another vote for battery power.

So right now the election poles show a 2-1 leaning towards battery R/C (with the 1 DCC vote being for a pretty nifty tool that can do everything).

My other hobby is building, flying, and crashing R/C airplanes.  Sometimes I can rebuild to fly again but to make a long story short I do have a number of "spare" transmitters in the 72 MHz band.  (I don't crash transmitters very often.)  Has anyone had any experience bashing a GRR R/C system together from R/C aircraft parts?  If I'm reading the literature right the GRR R/C systems run in the 27 MHz band which would mean some frequency changes in either the aircraft TX or GRR RX.

Thanks,

Rex

[TonyWalsham]

Hi Rex.

You certainly can use regular 2 stick R/C to control your Large Scale trains. I make a number of ESC's that utilise just such equipment.  Equipment that will result in independent control of as many trains as you have operators, for considerably less cost cost than either Proprietary R/C or DCC.  You will not have the same amount of functionality as DCC or Proprietary R/C but you will be able to control speed/direction plus at least 2 sound functions even with a 2 stick R/C.  Four channel equipment will yield extra sound function controls.

A few words of warning.  DO NOT USE 72 mHZ R/C. This is reserved for use with Air control only.  You must use only the allocated frequencies for ground control.  These include 27 Mhz and 75 Mhz.

 

[Rex in Pinetop]

Most of my spare transmitters are 6 channel.  What is envolved in getting a frequency change?  I know it's more than changing the channel crystal.

Rex

[TonyWalsham]

SNIP. What is envolved in getting a frequency change?  I know it's more than changing the channel crystal.

Rex

Sorry, that I cannot help you with.  I would suggest that if you are considering switching frequencies the best place to start to find out what is involved, is to contact your local R/C group or specialist Hobby Shop.