LGB brass vs. stainless

[Anonymous]

So after many fun hours around the Christmas tree with the circle of LGB brass track included with the starter set, I've noticed a LOT of brass dust collecting on the roadbed. I don't have quite the space to expand to a proper 8' diameter circle. If I were to switch to nickel plated, will it create as much dust as the brass?

[tangerine-jack]

You shouldn't be getting any dust at all.  Sounds like something is rubbing on the track.  I would examine the loco and see if any of the drivers are coated in brass, could be one or more sets of drivers are too wide and the flanges are scouring the track.  Or perhaps a gear inside the loco is running dry or otherwise having a problem.

I've run a similar set up for days on end (by mistake!) with no discernable wear or other problems.

[Anonymous]

Strange. I extended the circle by adding 1' sections, making it a square, and at the point where the curved sections meet the straight sections, both on entering and exiting the curve, there is a ton of brass dust. I can tell the little Stainz slows down as the loco gets to the turn, as it drags its way around, then resumes speed when it hits the straight section. It's grinding the flange on the inside of the outer rail of the track at the curve, making dust. Maybe I've got a bad lot of track?

[ttrigg]

Dalcarls

could be one or more sets of drivers are too wide and the flanges are scouring the track. .

Reread TJ's note.  After your second description of the problem I going out on a limb here but "one or more sets of drivers are too wide and the flanges are scouring the track".  Take the engine down to your local shop and see if they can check the wheel sets and bring them into proper specs.  I'm sure your track is fine, check the drivers.

[Anonymous]

I'll have to have it checked to be sure, but in just checking against the width of the rails, there is side-to-side play between the flanges and the rails on the loco. Seems to be the same as the axles on the cars. What I do notice however is that the metal wheels on the cars (single axle trucks) aren't terribly smooth - almost like there's a texture to them. Like I wrote in another post, the trucks don't really turn as it makes its way through the corners - they stay relatively straight and drag their way through. The trucks aren't binding at all on their own, but the metal wheels (being fixed and not allowed to turn independently) don't slide easily on the rails, and combined with the lousy coupler design, seem to mean that's just the way they are. Running the loco on its own around the track is nice and smooth, but sliding a car around produces a grinding/squeaking sound. I'm thinking of polishing down the wheels on the cars to take the little bit of texture off to see if that helps.

[devils]

The brass dust appears whenever I've seen a well used R1 circuit it's just the fact that the taper on the wheels isn't a perfect way of keeping the loco in the centre of the track so the flanges come into play and grind a little on the rail, due to 'hunting' where the loco twists laterally, there will be wear on the inner rail too. Any loco going round such a tight radius will be slipping due to the difference in distance travelled by the outer and inner wheels as the outer rail is longer than the inner one. (approx 10 inches more rail on the outside rail!)

I wouldn't worry as Christmas displays I've seen have run continuously for weeks with no visible sign of damage to wheels or rail profile and just a little trail of brass dust left afterwards.

[Anonymous]

LGB add a warning about using their track indoors and possible damage to carpet, so i suggest that you heed that warning and move your layout outside ASAP.

I don't know what type of dust they expect but they do say you may get it.

I would want a better reason that that to get away from brass track.

Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

Well, I made sure to get roadbed for the track last year so the carpet wouldn't get trashed. For that purpose, it works very well. Plus it looks cool. Really, the dust I could accept if I could get away from the loud grinding/squeaking. I thought I had it cured after some fast runs, but it's back. I imagine if I went to a larger diameter circle I'd be ok. Kind of disappointing though - it should be simple enough to engineer a set such that it would work well as-is. I guess that's the big gripe here. But now I've got some incentive to extend it. ;-)

[RR Redneck]

Strange. I extended the circle by adding 1' sections, making it a square, and at the point where the curved sections meet the straight sections, both on entering and exiting the curve, there is a ton of brass dust. I can tell the little Stainz slows down as the loco gets to the turn, as it drags its way around, then resumes speed when it hits the straight section. It's grinding the flange on the inside of the outer rail of the track at the curve, making dust. Maybe I've got a bad lot of track?

Sounds like you have track out of guage to me.

[Anonymous]

What Eric had to say sounds impossible, but i have had just about the same thing, ie the track was too narrow in a very small section. My problem was caused by me, and you are unlikely to get the same problem.

I have started up just the same as you and i never had any funny noises at all, of course i'm half deaf as well.

I think something is wrong, and it looks like a tracking problem, if your eyes are still ok why not get a good ruler or better still a set of calipers and measure the guage of the track, both where you are having the problem and where you are not and see if you have a difference?

Rgds Ian 

[Rastun]

Well, I made sure to get roadbed for the track last year so the carpet wouldn't get trashed. For that purpose, it works very well. Plus it looks cool. Really, the dust I could accept if I could get away from the loud grinding/squeaking. I thought I had it cured after some fast runs, but it's back. I imagine if I went to a larger diameter circle I'd be ok. Kind of disappointing though - it should be simple enough to engineer a set such that it would work well as-is. I guess that's the big gripe here. But now I've got some incentive to extend it. ;-)

 

You really need to check the gauge on the wheels, especially if it's making a grinding noise. Your wheels should have a back to back measurement of 40mm. If you start getting much wider than that the wheels are going to bind when they get into anything but a straight line. If you have done things to narrow down where the noise or dust is comming from it's easier for a person to help you if they know all the available facts. Roll each piece of rolling stock around the track by itself and see which on hangs up when it gets to the corners. It is a 4 wheeled piece or 8 wheeled? Is the truck the wheels are in supposed to pivot? If so does it pivot? etc.

 

Jack 

[DennisB]

I have experienced the same dust residue. When using the LGB grease it dries and leaves a black residue. Plastic wheels will also leave dust on the floor. To check for binding on a curve just manually push any railcar thru a curve and you will feel the resistance. Good Luck.

[Anonymous]

Well, I just took the layout down for the year, and sure enough, the inside edge of the outer rail on all the R1 curves has been worn down to the point where there's a nice bevel to it.  Based on what everyone's saying, I did some testing.

 

I took two pieces of straight track, and connected two new R1 sections to one end.  I then took each car and rolled it along the test track to see what happens.  All cars are single axle (euro style) standard LGB trucks with new LGB metal wheels.  The cars are all from the Stainz passeger starter set.

 

Rolling the cars individually along the track, I can see that when they begin the turn, the front truck doesn't turn - it remains straight.  Of course, this means it drags along the inside of the outer rail.  If I grab the coupler and try to turn it while the car is on the track, it's difficult.  It's not binding on the underside of the car, rather it seems that since both wheels are fixed to the axle, either or both of them are forced to drag along the surface of the track to let the truck turn.  This makes sense.  The wheels can't operate independently.  And given the coupler design, there isn't anything to cause the truck to turn.  When the layout was in operation, you could see that the leading truck on each car remained straight, the trailing one actually did turn due to the load of the next car.  The last car's rear truck however remained turned the entire way around the layout, even on the straight track sections.  

 

I was checking out Ridge Road Station this morning, and noticed that LGB has ball-bearing wheelsets.  I'd think that would allow the trucks to turn more easily since each wheel can operate independently, and as mentioned in an earlier post, allow the outer wheel to travel the additional distance created by the outer rail. 

 

I will get my hands on a metric ruler to check the track width and distance between the wheels, but is it even possible for new LGB wheelsets and new LGB track to be off by that much?  I wouldn't rule anything out at this point though.  ;-)

 

Thanks! 

[devils]

noticed that LGB has ball-bearing wheelsets.  I'd think that would allow the trucks to turn more easily since each wheel can operate independently, and as mentioned in an earlier post, allow the outer wheel to travel the additional distance created by the outer rail. 

[Anonymous]

The quick and dirty fix I tossed together for a while that helped a bit was to put a couple of mini zip-ties on the "loop" side of the coupler (don't know the official term, the opposite of the "hook" side), one on either side of the hook, centered in the loop, so the trailing coupler of one car steered the leading coupler of the next car. There was still the issue of the wheels not rolling at the same rate, so one invariably dragged along the surface of the track to some degree.

A larger diameter loop would lessen the difference that the wheels roll and would presumably help matters (not to mention look better). Wheels that operate independently would probably help more I'd think. Off to the shop to check 'em out in person...

[DannyS]

I only have one item of LGB rolling stock fitted with Roller Bearing Wheelsets, but I can confirm the wheels roll indepentently of each other, this car is impossible to park anywhere as it just rolls away on the slightest gradient.

 

[Anonymous]

Does it have single axle wheelsets or double?

Thanks!

[devils]

Conducted an experiment with my mates coach and confirmed the ball bearing wheelsets roll independently on the axle so it will lower the rolling resistance on sharp curves. You'll still need something to guide the axle into the corner on the 4 wheel stock like you've done already though or the flange will still grind on the rail, albeit less than before.

I think part of the problem is that the leading axle especially is guided by the fixed loco coupling which swings out further from the track centre making the flange angle into the rail. If you put a bogie coach in front of a 4 wheel one the short bogie wheelbase keeps the coupling in the track centre and guides the 4 wheelers leading axle into the corner better.

So the really small feldbahn stuff and bogie stock run round the 2ft rad curves better than the stuff sold in the start set ! !

[Anonymous]

Awesome. Sounds like the ball-bearing wheelsets will be on the parts list next Christmas, and worst-case scenario, I can re-employ my zip-tie mod to get the axles to point the right way. Interesting thought on the fixed coupler on the loco - I'll definitely have to look into a bogie coach. I wonder what the last axle of the last car will do with the new wheelsets (it remained somewhat fixed), but hey - this sounds like it might just do the trick.

Many thanks!

[Anonymous]

I cannot support LGB ball bearing wheelsets strongly enough, I have a postal van that has nearly bashed itself to death through falling off tables etc, because it rolls so easily. I am slowly putting them on everything and the electrical connections are also outstanding.

Big problem, they are very bloody expensive and i can only justify a few every so often at US$25.00 for 2 axles.

Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

Yeah, they're pricey. But then, what does LGB make that isn't? ;-)

Seriously though, if that's what it takes to be able to enjoy the train, then so be it. It makes a pretty nasty dust now. The additional ability to light the cars is something I hadn't totally considered. That would be VERY cool.

[Anonymous]

Not just power for lighting; as well.

Anything you want to get from the track for other equipment. eg I have a sound unit connected to; one and i get power for that, as well as MTS signals to control it.

Rgds Ian

 

[Pipalya]

I have minimum R2 radius track inside. No problems nor the slightest hint of any brass dust. Rubber roadbed makes the setup look really cool.

[Anonymous]

Just lube it comes to mined and get a track gauge on eBay, if track is badly screwed then step up to larger curve. Wheel sets are very nice! Buy me some too

[Snoq. Pass RR]

Another problem that nobody (by the sounds of it) is looking at.  When you go around a turn, one wheel must spin faster than the other to go around that turn.  This is why ball-bearing axles are a better choice than ridged axles (which is what comes in every set).  Ball-bearing axles allow each wheel to spin independent of the other.  This will stop the brass dust problem.  UNLESS (which has been talked about) your axles are over gauged.  Look into the gauge first, to save the money (ball-bearings are somewhat expense).

[Anonymous]

That's actually why I mentioned the ball bearing wheelsets. :-)

I'll get a gauge, but the track is all new (well, will be 2 years old this Christmas), so can it really be off by that much? Comes out of the box, set up around the tree, then back in the box.

[piercedan]

 

 

FYI, Gary Raymond makes a single sided ball bearing wheelset.

 http://home.earthlink.net/~glraymond/wheels.html

One wheel is fixed to the axle, the other wheel has a ball bearing.

Lower cost than the LGB version, and the wheels are heavier.