What if layout...John Allen in Borracho Springs????

[vsmith]

OK this is just may be little more than a pipe dream but awhile ago I got to trying to see if I could adapt John Allen's famous (infamous?) 1st Gorre & Dephitid to an outdoor layout, namely MY outdoor layout, specifically MY available outdoor area...[;)]

After a few attempts, then a few variations I came up with the attached PDF drawing. This is my take on the G&D stuffed into what will likley be a +/- 15' x 22' area for my outdoor layout. This is all wildly specuative at this point and I have NO idea what the missus might think but I like to plan ahead, so to speak[;)][;)]

The layout will still be mostly rock garden with some desert succulents and such...no cactus as the dog tends to disagree with them[:0]. The way it lays I figure I should have enough room to grade it to give myself a minimum 9" vertical clearance at the bridgess with the highest point, Snafu, being only about 20 inches higher than the lowest point, Borracho. After all it is a mining layout, so a few steeper grades wont look out of place[:0][:0][:0]

Its basically an over under with a spur to Snafu. It will have 5 foot min. dia mainline curves, with 6.5' and some 8' curves (remember all my lokies are smallun's)and use built up stone walls as support. I like rocky cliff-hanging railroads with spindly precarious trestles so steep sidewalls to me are a plus... The tunnels are a might bit longer than I would care for for access but I figure if I ever actually get to start building it I can work it out. There is also the possibility of running a connector track along the fence line and entering the workshop/storage area via along the rear property fence. We'll see. Its still along time from now till the house is done but I was curious what others might think of it. [:D]

Any glaring problems I've overlooked?
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith//What%20if%20study%20for%20future.pdf
Thanks Vic[8D]

[ttrigg]

Vic;

Looks like you have set yourself another challenge. The only problem I foresee, and that depends upon her ladyship, and that would be getting approval to start construction. As for your variation, I see you did away with what could possibly be the biggest challenge outdoors, the turntable, and substituted a mine. You've also done away with his lake, more space for track, I presume. Steep grades and sharp curves make for shorter cars, but you know that already. I like the added yards, makes for a more interesting working plan. I see you have one line that runs "off frame" (top right). Any plans to tie that into something larger?

For those of you who have not had the opportunity to gaze in wonder at John Allen's work, here is a copy of his original plan for the G&D.


The original G&D as built.


These two pix and many more are in a 1981 book Model Railroading with John Allen by Lynn Wescott, published by Kalmback
If you want to truly drool over the craftsmanship of a master, the try your best to find a copy.

[Anonymous]

Couldn't help but respond when I saw John Allen's name. My brother --regular Army--attended Army Language School in John Allen's town (San Diego) many years ago. My family has been in model RR since the 1930's and my brother naturally called John up to see if he could visit. He did so and spent numerous evenings with John. John ultimately gave him a G & D HO car which he still has. (I feel like the man who wanted "...to shake the hand of the man who shook the hand of the great John L.!" I feel like prostrating myself when I hear my brother speak of those evenings with John, experiencing vicariously moments in The Great Man's Presence and viewing that Legendary Layout.) John Allen did imaginatively for minute scenery and true scale modeling in HO what John Ellison before him (and whom we knew in New Orleans in the 40's) did for O scale scenery and operations. Until John Allen came along, HO was mostly an "interesting" little scale but with no pretensions! John Allen elevated it to an art form! We still have all the Model Railroader magazines from those years and his work was and is phenomenal. What a shame the G & D burned down. It does my heart good, guys, to hear you speak of him in properly reverent tones. Good luck in resurrecting the G & D in large scale! John is somewhere and smiling on you!

[Ray Dunakin]

Great post, gdancer! I feel the same way about John Allen. He was my inspiration from way back when I could only dream of having my own model railroad.

[Anonymous]

All I can say is good luck and that would be a great way to get into Model RR mag if you did a good job. That layout has been a insperation for generations of model RRers and I am glad to hear someone is attempting to resurect it! Keep us posted if you go thru with it.

[Anonymous]

Being from Tucson AZ in the sonoran desert suclucents and cacti sound kinda' dull I have a couple of questions for you vsmith ... diesel or steam,standard or narrow guage?

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by locoporter

Being from Tucson AZ in the sonoran desert suclucents and cacti sound kinda' dull I have a couple of questions for you vsmith ... diesel or steam,standard or narrow guage?

Both, narrow gauge only. One advantage of modeling roughly 1950 is that you can run quite a mix of stock.

Have to walk very carefully with this proposal...its still a ways out from being built, if ever. the wife wants a trellis between the house and the garage and an area for a BBQ somewhere in the same vicinity of this real estate, so I have to navigate very carefull to get something outside.

[ttrigg]

Vic;

Wishing you the best of luck obtaining the required approval. Once you get that I know you will have a layout well worth bragging about.

[vsmith]

Why wait? I brag about my layout now. I brag about how small it is[;)][:O][B)][:D]

[vsmith]

Ok looks like the G&D varient will be DOA....at least in that location.

SWMBO has spoken...Cannot use that area of the yard for THAT usage...BBQ gets top priority. (and maybe a spa)

anyway...

After some tight negotiations, turns out I CAN use that unused area in back corner of the yard.
So now its time to see what I can do out there. Its narrower but longer if I nudge it out in front of the tree.
I've got a plan underway

OK here we go...first shot in at the corner pocket!

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith//HOUSE-new%20layout%20study-corner%20pocket.pdf

This drawing is rotated 90degrees CCW from the previous PDF. The studio is now on on the bottom of the page
and north is to the top. Its roughly 12' x 30' area. This is a first try, based on an older plan. I'll try a G&D varient but I'm only 9' W at one side and I dont think I'll be able to work it in, anyway we'll see.

[vsmith]

Hmmm...seams like no matter how I work it I still get a minimum of 4% grades. So I'm considering a simpler plan that mixes some 5' and 6'5' curves with some R1 that I already have, and it looks like I'll have to look at possibly using 12000 switches, as I just don't think I can afford a mess of 16000 switches. I can get two 12000's for the same price as one 16000. Economics are a big thing for me...I'm not worried about reach as I'll have stepping stones to all the switches and I'll look into building it up at least 12-18 inches, mostly to discourage the dog from climbing into it.

Heres the simplified plan that eliminates the 4% grades, but still using 16000 switches and wider radius curves:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith//Outdoor%20layout%20study%20Model%202.pdf

Heres the same plan with less expensive (and plentifull in my garage) 12000 switches and some R1 curves:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith//Outdoor%20layout%20study%20Model%203.pdf

I do have a failsafe plan thats all R1s, but thats a last gasp plan...

[FJ and G]

VS,

Just be sure you have room to walk and reach with the plan. Looking forward to seeing construction progress photos.

Tom,

Appears to be the original G&D that he later incorporated into his larger plan. Shame he died so young. He was my hero growing up. I'm sort of a Malcom Furlow fan at the moment.

Shame neither do/did outside garden RRs.

[vsmith]

Quick update: Worked on it last night, heres what I'm going to aim for:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith//Outdoor%20layout%20study%20CURRENT%204-27-06.pdf

Its a mix of 6.5 and 4 footers, all R1 switches, got rid of the reverse curve and added the wye. It may not be 100% final, but it gives me a good idea of what I'll need to budget for new stuff.

[SandyR]

Vic, that last track plan is pure genius! What a long run in a small space, and places to stop and switch or wait for a passing train. It has the potential for a lot of operation. You sure have a knack for designing track plans!!!
SandyR

[FJ and G]

Ditto. Lookin good & lookin forward to seeing the construction as it progresses.