Scale model railroading

[RhB_HJ]

Hi all,

As a model railroader who has been in the hobby for almost 53 years - but only 6 years in Large Scale or more precisely IIm 1:22.5 scale - it always strikes me as odd that people would expect newcomers to LS to forget their modeling background in the smaller scales.

I have only been reading MR since 1970, the progress in the smaller scales since the early 70s has been amazing!
My switch to LS in 1999 was an eye opener: shorty cars with any railway name applied regardless of proto, selective compression on engines, curve radii fit for FRR used for mainline narrow gauge, track that could be called "very sturdy" (or elephant-proof) etc. etc. In short it was like regressing by at least 20 years.
Are Large Scalers really that insular that they have no inkling of what happens in other scales?

All this because of the WOW Factor??

[Curmudgeon]

WOW! factor my hindquarters.
It's a problem voiced by many of the aging Boomers that are thinking of moving into larger stuff 'cause it's easier to see, but the scale fidelity isn't there.
That was a BIG reason for the pu***o 1:20, and Bachmann's runaway success with the line.
We'll see, as time progresses.
TOC

[John Busby]

Hi All
I came up from the small scales yes the WOW factor helped but seeing what i am doing has a bit to do with it.
What you expect me to forget 36 years of a known scale to build too just cause I decided to get bigger trains.
The pieces I am making my self are built to a known scale as are some of the bits I have since purchased.
My biggest frustration with a well know manufacturer was that what scale depends on which piece of the wagon or coach you measure and also
being the proud owner of a rule that is made of elastic[:(] how do you build something the correct proportions to go with that!!![?]
I realise for the sake of sanity fiddly bits that break are best left off
but lets have some scale consistency from the manufacturers and that scale
clearly noted on the box so we know what to leave on the shop shelf.
regards John

[IRONROOSTER]

I am not in Large Scale and most likely won't be any time soon. There are too many scales running on the same track. It's a chore trying to figure out what scale some of the manufacturers are using - especially when they use more than one and/or are remiss in indicating which they are using for each product. Second there are no standard gauge products - I don't count Aristocraft because their stuff is 4'3'', plus 1/29 is a really odd scale. Large scale is really in the toy train genre as opposed to the scale genre. And this seems to be fine for most of its adherents.
Enjoy
Paul

[cacole]

I started in HO scale in 1960 and am still modeling in HO. When I decided to dabble in large scale, Bachmann's 1:20.3 Spectrum steam engines are the only ones I use. I don't purchase rolling stock unless it, too, is 1:20.3. That means a lot of scratch building or specialty kits from the likes of Ozark Miniatures or Northeast Narrow Gauge. I also try to use only wide curves, and don't like the looks of a train trying to go through an LGB turnout because they look too much like Lionel Toy Trains rather than models.

I know, I know, here come a lot of hostile comments about my criticism of LGB turnouts. I don't doubt their quality; I just don't like the looks of a train going through them.

[John Busby]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cacole

.I also try to use only wide curves, and don't like the looks of a train trying to go through an LGB turnout because they look too much like Lionel Toy Trains rather than models.

I know, I know, here come a lot of hostile comments about my criticism of LGB turnouts. I don't doubt their quality; I just don't like the looks of a train going through them.

Hi cacole
LGB do do points in a much larger radius than 2' these days if your bank balance can stand it[}:)]
regards John

[van buren s l]

I don't see how it matters if large scale railroaders do or don't adhere to a particular scale. People in the hobby range in interest from the purely whimsical to strict adherents to scale fidelity. It's a personal matter. Some people think that the confusing varieties of scale and non-scale offerings on the market are a curse. Others see it as a challenge which offers scratch builders and kitbashers the opportunity to create items which are not on the market and are truly unique. I belong to the second group and scratch build. I'm not a particularly skilled craftsman but I enjoy the challenge and the satisfaction of running something that I built. If you are a strict adherent to scale fidelity and want a wide selection of models off the shelf in your scale then perhaps you should stick to one of the eye-strain gauges.
Bob

[Tom The Brat]

Well... A small scale friend used to criticize, "G is for people who don't care about scale." However, he's found that we're actually more conscious of scale than he was, as he just always assumed his HO equipment was modeled to the proper scale. Then he took out little ruler and was shocked to find most of his equipment was short or the wrong height.

Ok, so my rails are 10 scale inches tall and 4mm too close together, and please don't point out that my mid size loco is really a tiny loco modeled to a bigger scale[:D]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vbsltco

I don't see how it matters if large scale railroaders do or don't adhere to a particular scale. People in the hobby range in interest from the purely whimsical to strict adherents to scale fidelity. It's a personal matter. Some people think that the confusing varieties of scale and non-scale offerings on the market are a curse. Others see it as a challenge which offers scratch builders and kitbashers the opportunity to create items which are not on the market and are truly unique. I belong to the second group and scratch build. I'm not a particularly skilled craftsman but I enjoy the challenge and the satisfaction of running something that I built. If you are a strict adherent to scale fidelity and want a wide selection of models off the shelf in your scale then perhaps you should stick to one of the eye-strain gauges.
Bob

Actually that wasn't the question, but sometimes it is hard to understand my questions.[;)] [}:)][;)]
Eye-strain: Let me just say Micro-Trains Z scale detail is as good as a lot of what some mfgs produce in Large Scale.

[tangerine-jack]

I would think some at least fall into my category, those who are fed up with over-critical rivet counting snobs in smaller scales. I have been in model railroading, both N and HO for around 25 years or so and if that makes me a "newcomer" then fine. I have NOT forgotten what scale is, how could I? I just don't want the hassle of it anymore. Let's face reality here, we are grown men (and women) playing with TOY trains. Anything less than 1:1 is a TOY, it's made in Japan, Germany, China, USA and Korea and sold in a little box in a grown up TOY store called a "hobby shop", OK? Good, now that we have that established, in what reference frame do we now argue scale as though it means something? Unless you are an indoor G scaler, our full sized scenery is ALWAYS going to disrupt the "scale" of whatever we are running on the track, rendering it a moot point and nonsensical argument.



"My switch to LS in 1999 was an eye opener: shorty cars with any railway name applied regardless of proto, selective compression on engines, curve radii fit for FRR used for mainline narrow gauge, track that could be called "very sturdy" (or elephant-proof) etc. etc. In short it was like regressing by at least 20 years.
Are Large Scalers really that insular that they have no inkling of what happens in other scales? "

No, we know EXACTLY what happens in other scales and rebel against it to the fullest of our abilities. Put me down for "does not apply".



[oX)]

[vsmith]

I've been WOWed by MTH's 1/32 stuff just as much as Aristo's 1/29 stuff just as much as Bachmann's 1/20 stuff, so I dont think its the size that matters. As for the detail , as more people migrate to LS I beleive they will expect greater detail (although most of todays recent current offerings are pretty good) they will not want items that are so finescale as to be delicate for easily broken. Lets face it picking up a many-pounded locomotive only to have grab rails snap and break at the slightest pressure will not make for alot of happy converts. Also the cost of items cannot keep spiraling upward for less and less production run. Accucrafts Big Boy is Spectacular, but at a limited run and a used car price, I doubt many of us are even able to consider buying one. I dont doubt that MTH will sell far more , same scale. less WOW detail, and likely less performance but most of us can't pull 46 cars around our layouts anyways (the Accu did just this on the Del Oro layout at the iHobby show recently).

Nor will pushing on rivet counter issues like finescale flanges on wheels. Theres a reason LS cars have larger flanges. I found out the hard way with a 2 axle gondola kit that came with finescale wheels. I built it only to find that the little POS wouldnt stay on the tracks no matter how much weight I loaded into it[:(!] It would derail at the slightest imperfection and on every switch going any direction. Unfortunatly the means of construction ment that I cannot dissassemble it to replace the wheels with good ol' Bachmann's without doing some serious damage to the kit. Bugger !!!

So there will likely be some compromise between the more rugged toylike aspects and the more delicate finescale aspects to reach a medium that satisfies the majority of large scale modelers. Bachmann has been doing the best job at this IMO. Their Spectrum line is a good example for balancing performance, cost and detail.

[grandpopswalt]

I agree with Vic. B'mann's Spectrum series 1:20 scale narrow gauge line of steam locos is exactly the direction LS should be headed, true-to-scale, affordable and reasonably robust. I'd now like to see someone come out with a line of equal quality and price frieght and passenger cars in 1:20 scale.

I hope the evolutionary process will eventually leave us with two scales; 1:20 for narrow gauge and 1:29 for standard because I don't see the track gauge ever changing.

Walt

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpopswalt

I agree with Vic. B'mann's Spectrum series 1:20 scale narrow gauge line of steam locos is exactly the direction LS should be headed, true-to-scale, affordable and reasonably robust. I'd now like to see someone come out with a line of equal quality and price frieght and passenger cars in 1:20 scale.

I hope the evolutionary process will eventually leave us with two scales; 1:20 for narrow gauge and 1:29 for standard because I don't see the track gauge ever changing.

Walt

Hi Walt,

For the Euro crowd that cares about scale it will be 1:22.5; with more mfgs being prepared to work to scale. Most recent example is BRAWA who proves it can be done without pivoting single axle units and has produced a RhB Connie which will negotiate R1 (600mm) if really required while still being to exact scale.
BTW I'm sure that the designers/toolmakers at LGB would manage the same, it is all a matter of philosophy rather than the limitations of technology. BTW exact scale doesn't necessarily mean that every last bolt - never mind how tiny - is on the model.
In LGB's case it would be a huge step to get consistent overall scale i.e. the length, the width and the height are all to the same scale.

And that would mean in Standard gauge items one would accept the de facto 1:29 instead of doing the "somewhere around 1:27" dance. Well, at least they are slowly getting the drift that IIm means 1:22.5; it took a long time but they are starting to improve.

[kstrong]

Quite the opposite. I think what's happening is that large scale is finally maturing to where it resembles the smaller scales.

Not everyone in HO scale does George Sellios style scenery. There are many, many HO scale railroads built on green-painted sheets of plywood with Bachmann EZ-Track nailed in place. They run 1880s vintage wood box cars behind an SD-40 because they have two starter sets and that's what came with the sets. How many of us have friends and coworkers who "have a friend who has trains in his basement?" In most of these cases, that's what they're referring to. The miniature recreations of the natural world we see in magazines are the exception.

The "toy" market has existed in every scale before the "scale" market emerged. I've got my dad's 1930s vintage Lionel set sitting on my mantle. It resembles nothing that would ever have appeared on prototypical rails. Functioning searchlights on a flat car? Not that I've ever seen in Trains magazine. And I've been in TV news for over 10 years, and I have yet to hear of any station that keeps their news helicopter on a flat car. The closest we come is the wheeled platform we use to tow the chopper into the hangar for storage. Sorry, no steel wheels or flanges.

Probably 95% of us were introduced to this hobby via a "toy" train of some kind. And when we got that train--either as a child or adult--it was initially as real as it got. But that's just a starting point. As we get further involved in the hobby, we learn about "realism" and "scale," and that not all flat cars carry rockets. If that kind of more stringent adherence to history and reality appeals to us, we delve into it. Otherwise, we happily exist with the pure escapism of playing with our "toys."

What we're seeing in large scale is that the manufacturers are finally producing equipment that allows those of us who want something "more" to pursue our goals without having to scratcbuild everything. It's the same slow migration that's occurred in O and HO scale. But because it is just getting a strong footing, the "toy" aspect of the hobby still occupies a vast amount of the store shelves. (Yes, MTH makes a 1:32 flat car with a news helicopter on it.)

The "toy" side of the hobby will never go away. The fact that Lionel is still around, I think, demonstrates this quite clearly. They've been bought and sold more times than most of their products, but they're still around making toy trains which attract people to the hobby. Bachmann still makes el-cheapo plastic train sets in HO and N scale, but also turns out finely scaled models in 4 different scales.

True "scale" railroading as it exists today with inexpensive, but accurate mass-produced models has only existed--in any scale--for the past 25 to 30 years. When I was in HO scale, I couldn't fathom affording a detailed steam locomotive. There were some (Rivarossi, for example), but most often if you wanted a detailed steam loco, you had to buy brass. Now, everyone makes them. Bachman and Athearn are turning out beautiful locos that run like fine watches. Folks getting started in HO today have far more choices than we did just 20 years ago. The same is becoming the case in large scale. 25 years ago, we didn't even have US prototype locomotives in large scale, let alone accurate ones. Now we've got standard gauge and narrow gauge choices, each very well detailed, almost to museum quality levels. (And far exceeding many brass offerings from even 10 years ago.)

We'll never "get rid" of the toy trains in this scale, and I hope we never do. But we'll also see continued progress towards well-made scale models which the small-scale enthusiast can cheerfully embrace as their "next step." There needs to be toys and scale models in every scale. The world is big enough.

Later,

K

[tangerine-jack]

Well said, K. Only one point of order, I have seen helicopters and missles on flat cars, 20+ years in the Army and you see quite a bit! One of these days I'll have my camera with me and take a few pix.

I however, have embraced the toy train aspect as a logical "next step" in train evolution (well, mine anyway!). I really, really don't care what the scale is as long as it looks "right". Just wait until you see my whimsey contest entry! I think it's around 1/8 or so if you had to tag it.[:D][:-^]

[oX)]

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I'd say I have a foot in both camps! I try to stick pretty much 1:29 so it looks right together; however that is not always possible. I very much agree that the degree of ruggedness required to operate in the outdoor envrionment necessitates a "Toy" aspect.

I don't think rivet counters will ever be satisfied in our scales (all of them), so perhaps they should go elsewhere; EXCEPT for the fact that thier complaining is what forces a better attention to detail (within the realm of reason), which is probably to the benefit of us all! I just don't care to hear too much of it!

I'm finding that in G the old adage of "to each his own said the farmer -----" very much applies.

[van buren s l]

HJ
My earlier reply in this thread was directed to Ironrooster's comments,not your poll. Unfortunately I omitted his address.
Bob

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vbsltco

HJ
My earlier reply in this thread was directed to Ironrooster's comments,not your poll. Unfortunately I omitted his address.
Bob

Ah well, then I'll share a few comments back. First I am not trying to criticize anyone who models in Large Scales. I agree that if you want to mix scales on your layout, in your garden, etc., that's fine. The 3 rail O gaugers have been doing it since before WWII. My point is that Large Scale will have trouble attracting people who have some interest in scale fidelity because of the difficulty in identifying the scale of many of the products and because none of the scales have standard gauge products. While I have done scratchbuilding, kit building, etc. I don't wi***o scratchbuild everything - I don't have the time. It's not a wide selection of RTR, but rather some basic support for one scale that's needed. Things like track, trucks, parts, as well as cars, car kits, locomotives, locomotive kits, structure kits, etc. These are needed for standard gauge as well as narrow gauge. Without them Large Scales will attract fewer modelers than otherwise would be the case. In any case if your having fun that's what counts - I know I am in S scale.
Enjoy
Paul

[ttrigg]

I too started in HO 33 years ago, then migrated to N for the sake of putting more miles of track per square foot of floor space. For a short time I even dabbled in Z. I have ALWAYS had something off scale in all of my layouts, mostly a "neat" looking structure of some sort. Back in the late 70's the train stores in Germany carried a mixed scale Vollmer (sp?) set of castles, they were a little too small for HO and a little too large for N, but I liked them, so one or more went on both my HO and then the N layouts. I've never been a member of the "Scale Purity Gestapo Brigade". In fact the wife has asked me if I plan on putting the castle out in the garden. Sadly I do not think it is UV proof, otherwise I probably would. I figure this is my HOBBY, and hobbies are for relaxation and enjoyment, since I'm demented anyway (at least my friends say I am) so what if my GRR has a little dementia too. Let's face it, if I was out for scale perfection I wouldn't be using bird houses, and Halloween odds and ends for the railroad.

As we all know even the "trueness" of scale within the smaller scales depends upon which brand you purchase. When I spent $3.00 for a coal car in N, I expected it to be slightly off scale, in fact the only requirement I have for it is that it make it around the layout without too much difficulty, when I spent $50 for that same car it had better be CORRECT IN ALL ASPECTS. Now that we have moved to the garden the dollar values have changed. A $90 car is good to go, however that $600 car better be true to scale.

The most interesting "club layout" I've ever been a part of was while stationed at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO. Since we were all active duty, and had spent time in Germany, we all had lots of European equipment. Our favorite layout (a single use modular system) of the Trans Europa Express (TEE) from "O" to "HO" to "N" to "Z" as the train progressed away from the viewer. In that layout there was no way we could stay true to scale anywhere. We had to "kit bash" and scratch build structures for the "in between scale" sections of the layout.

[Anonymous]

Well I am a Johnny come lately I have been in model railways for about 3 years and I started in "G" gauge.

However in that short time I have become a real know it all but i really know how little i know about the mechanics of locomotives and that i have a lot to learn!

Rfds Ian

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ttrigg

I too started in HO 33 years ago, then migrated to N for the sake of putting more miles of track per square foot of floor space. For a short time I even dabbled in Z. I have ALWAYS had something off scale in all of my layouts, mostly a "neat" looking structure of some sort. Back in the late 70's the train stores in Germany carried a mixed scale Vollmer (sp?) set of castles, they were a little too small for HO and a little too large for N, but I liked them, so one or more went on both my HO and then the N layouts. I've never been a member of the "Scale Purity Gestapo Brigade". In fact the wife has asked me if I plan on putting the castle out in the garden. Sadly I do not think it is UV proof, otherwise I probably would. I figure this is my HOBBY, and hobbies are for relaxation and enjoyment, since I'm demented anyway (at least my friends say I am) so what if my GRR has a little dementia too. Let's face it, if I was out for scale perfection I wouldn't be using bird houses, and Halloween odds and ends for the railroad.

As we all know even the "trueness" of scale within the smaller scales depends upon which brand you purchase. When I spent $3.00 for a coal car in N, I expected it to be slightly off scale, in fact the only requirement I have for it is that it make it around the layout without too much difficulty, when I spent $50 for that same car it had better be CORRECT IN ALL ASPECTS. Now that we have moved to the garden the dollar values have changed. A $90 car is good to go, however that $600 car better be true to scale.

The most interesting "club layout" I've ever been a part of was while stationed at Ft. Leonard Wood, MO. Since we were all active duty, and had spent time in Germany, we all had lots of European equipment. Our favorite layout (a single use modular system) of the Trans Europa Express (TEE) from "O" to "HO" to "N" to "Z" as the train progressed away from the viewer. In that layout there was no way we could stay true to scale anywhere. We had to "kit bash" and scratch build structures for the "in between scale" sections of the layout.

Hey Tom,

What you describe is referred to as "forced perspective". That is part of the bag of tricks when you're custom building layouts (we do, occasionally), however that has nothing to do with "the scale question" as it applies to Large Scale.

Of course at one time there was the same "happy co-existence" in European HO. Fleischmann, Rivarossi and Pocher were too big (as in bulky) at around 1:82 through 1:85; at the other end you had Kleinbahn at 1:90. And everyone else fit somewhere in between. All called "HO"! And of course shorty cars were the rule, as were tight curves.
Interesting part was that even as kids we could tell that "things don't fit together"; apart from the powered by AC or DC, three rail or two rail part and not to be forgotten the Smorgasbord of different couplers.

Now if one would apply the WOW factor theory to HO, things would have to be 1:82, wouldn't they?? Well, luckily they are not.
Today HO is 1:87, mfgs stipulate the minimum operating radius for engines (no it isn't 7.3"!!) and if you shop for HO equipment - no problem; it most likely will say so on the packaging.

BTW Tom, doing a layout on Euro proto, as you mentioned, is relatively easy.Lots of TT buildings to fit in between HO and N; plenty of "funny scale" cardboard cut-out stuff between O and HO. [:)][:)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Well I am a Johnny come lately I have been in model railways for about 3 years and I started in "G" gauge.

However in that short time I have become a real know it all but i really know how little i know about the mechanics of locomotives and that i have a lot to learn!

Rfds Ian

Duly noted for referencing regarding your posts.[;)][:)][;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

I am not in Large Scale and most likely won't be any time soon. There are too many scales running on the same track. It's a chore trying to figure out what scale some of the manufacturers are using - especially when they use more than one and/or are remiss in indicating which they are using for each product. Second there are no standard gauge products - I don't count Aristocraft because their stuff is 4'3'', plus 1/29 is a really odd scale. Large scale is really in the toy train genre as opposed to the scale genre. And this seems to be fine for most of its adherents.
Enjoy
Paul

Paul, 1:20.3 standard gauge is coming! The latest issue of GR showed a letter on regauging a Bachmann 45 tonner to standard gauge! Also in the same mag was that Iron creek shops introduced tie strips compatible with Llagas creek rail that is standard 70.64 in 120.3 and dual gauge to boot! It will be slow in coming although I would love to scratch build some 1:20.3 standard gauge stuff, I just need to complete my mogul first[;)]

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by carpenter matt

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

I am not in Large Scale and most likely won't be any time soon. There are too many scales running on the same track. It's a chore trying to figure out what scale some of the manufacturers are using - especially when they use more than one and/or are remiss in indicating which they are using for each product. Second there are no standard gauge products - I don't count Aristocraft because their stuff is 4'3'', plus 1/29 is a really odd scale. Large scale is really in the toy train genre as opposed to the scale genre. And this seems to be fine for most of its adherents.
Enjoy
Paul

Paul, 1:20.3 standard gauge is coming! The latest issue of GR showed a letter on regauging a Bachmann 45 tonner to standard gauge! Also in the same mag was that Iron creek shops introduced tie strips compatible with Llagas creek rail that is standard 70.64 in 120.3 and dual gauge to boot! It will be slow in coming although I would love to scratch build some 1:20.3 standard gauge stuff, I just need to complete my mogul first[;)]

Matt,
That's good to hear. I'll have to pick a copy of GR.
Enjoy
Paul

[vsmith]

1/20 standard gauge?

Those are goin' to be some wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide curves brother![;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

1/20 standard gauge?

Those are goin' to be some wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide curves brother![;)]

Just watch Vic, LGB will build a 1:20 standard gauge dash 9 that will go through a R1 looking very UGLY![:0][xx(]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by carpenter matt

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

1/20 standard gauge?

Those are goin' to be some wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide curves brother![;)]

Just watch Vic, LGB will build a 1:20 standard gauge dash 9 that will go through a R1 looking very UGLY![:0][xx(]

Likely it will be hinged in the center..[;)][:D]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by carpenter matt

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

1/20 standard gauge?

Those are goin' to be some wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide curves brother![;)]

Just watch Vic, LGB will build a 1:20 standard gauge dash 9 that will go through a R1 looking very UGLY![:0][xx(]

Likely it will be hinged in the center..[;)][:D]

Hey guys,

Nickname for that type of engine: Dachshund! [;)][:)][:p][:)]

[ttrigg]

Can't look much worse than trying to turn an aircraft carrier without tug boats while in the harbour.

[whiterab]

All depends on what your goals are.

Our first layout was put in the front garden to enhance the look of the garden and add some fun. Scale means little when your are using the train (in this case a trolley) as an addition to the garden.

The second layout is being built to scale in the back of the property. While scale modelling outdoors does create challenges, it is not impossible. Over time, I've moved more into scratchbuilding everything but the locos and the track and have found it very enjoyable.

The layout is strictly for our enjoyment as neighbors are kind of sparse where we live and very few people have even seen the layout.