Need some pointers from the pros before I proceed

[West Coast S]

Hello all:

I'm considering a large scale indoor layout to dipict an SP branch operation. I desire to build this as realistically as possible. I have the following questions to that end:

How does one handle the mutliple guage delima when running mixed manfactures equiptment? Rolling stock can be reguage or new wheelsets, but what about locomotives, specifically those of Aristocraft and USA Trains?

Any suggestions on prototype rail size, what code?
According to my math, code 148 is close to light rail for a branch , can large scale equiptment operate on this without reducing the flange depth, are replacement wheelsets available if need be?

Any tips or advice you can provided above and beyond the above questions will be greatly appreciated and assist me in reaching a decision.

Dave

[vsmith]

I'm considering a large scale indoor layout to dipict an SP branch operation. I desire to build this as realistically as possible. I have the following questions to that end:

How does one handle the mutliple guage delima when running mixed manfactures equiptment? Rolling stock can be reguage or new wheelsets, but what about locomotives, specifically those of Aristocraft and USA Trains?

My best advice is to choose one scale and stick to it. The majority of items are 1:29 scale and I beleive once you actually look at whats avalible in 1:29 you wont be too concerned about the scale issues, it REALLY isnt THAT important.

Any suggestions on prototype rail size, what code?
According to my math, code 148 is close to light rail for a branch , can large scale equiptment operate on this without reducing the flange depth, are replacement wheelsets available if need be?

There are currently only 2 rail codes avalible code 225 and code 332. Code 332 is the most common LGB type track avalable in brass or stainless steel. Code 225 is less avalable and used mostly for narrow gauge 1/20.3 prototype rail lines and require usage of finescale flanges, not very common. I have one car with finescale wheels and I hate it. derails on the slightest rail defect. As i suggested i would seriously look at 1/29 for reliability and operational ease

Any tips or advice you can provided above and beyond the above questions will be greatly appreciated and assist me in reaching a decision.

Dave

Good luck with whichever way you choose to go. I have been doing indoor layout planning off and on now for about 3 years, happy to give any help I can with your layout. Vic

[Marty Cozad]

Indoor is the key word in play here, I agree Vic

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't do it, indoors is a last ditch stand for G scale. I f you can't do it in the garden look long and hard at why you want to do it at all.

Ian

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

I wouldn't do it, indoors is a last ditch stand for G scale. I f you can't do it in the garden look long and hard at why you want to do it at all.

Ian

Ian, I sure dont understand why your so negative for even trying indoors G scale, its just like any other scale, takes up about the same room as smaller scales, but the level of detail can be so much greater. If the guy wants to do it indoors let them, sounds like fun to me, I'm only on hold till we get the new garage built then its going to be bigger and better, but still indoors, I'll still try to keep the outdoor line, but the inside finescale line will always be the primary layout.[:D]

Dave, send me an e-mail, I'm in Lost Angeles also.

Vic the Happy Indoor Garden Railroader

[Marty Cozad]

I did not want to say much because I have not gone ,,,pro.
But if you go to MLS and see (serach) Dave Winters indoor RR . Its great, lots of details and well worth it.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Marty Cozad

I did not want to say much because I have not gone ,,,pro.
But if you go to MLS and see (serach) Dave Winters indoor RR . Its great, lots of details and well worth it.

Hi guys,

I'll second Marty's comments.

I was at Dave Winter's a year ago. We were photographing the layout for a German large scale magazine called "GARTENBAHNprofi". It is a dandy of a layout and a real eye opener for those who haven't considered indoor Large Scale.

There is plenty of stuff that can be done indoors - including proto operation etc. etc.

On the rail size, you can get Code197 from Märklin, Code215 from Llagas Creek and others, Code250 from MicroEngineering and others. Since you're inside and (most likely) won't need miles and miles of track you might as well go with Nickelsilver rail. What works well in the smaller scales works just as well in Large Scale and Nickelsilver works very well!
Going smaller than Code197 will mean modifying or replacing all wheelsets. Code197 indoors will still require some mods to engine and car wheels. Code215 actually works even with the stock LGB and other wheels in the Jumbo-Flange category.
There was a buyer's guide on track in the June 2001 GARDEN RAILWAYS!
You may even consider handlaying the track if you're after realism!

@ Ian

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it (Indoor Large Scale that is!).
Just think of all the rubbish one doesn't encounter (in no particular order):
Extreme expansion/contraction due the temperature, variations in track alignment due to wash-outs and critter traffic, lousy electrical conditions due to the elements and natural plant excretions, shorter operating season (depending on climate), heightened chance of vandalism (depending on locale). Trees and ground cover that is out of scale.[}:)][;)]
I could add a lot more, but I'm sure you get the drift!

[bman36]

Hi Dave,
I have both indoor and out. Living in The Great White North means a shorter running season. Going indoors keeps me running year round. I am building my line around the perimeter of our basement about four feet off the floor. I cut openings in all the walls as necessary and left one room for a larger layout area. Vic is so right regarding the detail we can do with our scale. Buildings however do tend to take up a fair bit of space so consider carefully what scenes you wi***o depict. A wall is a perfect area to use building "fronts" all lined in a row. This will give you a populated look without taking up much area. Seeing how you plan to run modern mainline ( I assume) this will mean your curves will be a fair distance from the walls in your corners. Before I started building I used a few pieces of track connected together just to give myself a visual idea of how things would shape up. So far so good here. Then again mine is a Narrow Gauge Logging / Mining operation so tight curves and compact scenes look good in a tight area. My advice would be to get yourself some track and try laying a few areas out on the floor first. This way you can "see" just much space is really needed for the great ideas we get in our heads. Yes I axed a few of mine when I saw how much area was needed to accomplish a desired effect. Outdoors can be VERY forgiving in this area as we sneak away a bit more yard for our line. [;)] Indoors has specific physical barriers to deal with....walls! Mess around with it a bit and have fun creating. I do! Later eh...Brian.

[John Busby]

Hi West Coast S
The only thought I have is have a look at Peco G track if it is avalable In the US.
as it will be visualy better than LGB or Aristocraft indoors you have the advantage of being able to use a smaller rail and being a branch the sleepers (ties) can be buried if the sleeper spaceing or shape is not to your liking..
Multi gauge dilema??
wheels I would find the brand that runs best on the chosen rail and stick too them.
regards John

[West Coast S]

Hello all

Appreciate all the input, I have considerable experience handlaying rail, so that's the route i'm leaning towards, code 215 NS rail and #6 min. turnouts. I have 70X25 in which to work my magic, at first I was considering a new S scale layout, but i've been intrigued with large scale too long to ignore. Before I bite off more then I can chew, i'l do a much smaller layout until I adapt my mental appituide.

I can't tolerate anything modern, I have a perverse love of small SP steam, 2-6-0s and the like, lacking steam, Geeps and switchers in first generation SP colors will suffice. Having spent the last decade in S i've built a few steam engines from scratch as well, a SP mogul would exceed my wildest dreams as far as challenge and detail potential.

Ideally a U shaped point-to point, no duckunders with some stagging potential. towns located on the tails and a long run would be the goal, building flats would be used to hide the stagging yard just as suggested..No visible yards, passing sidings or space/money wasting engine facalities . I'm a long way from a final plan.. I did order a USA Trains 44 Ton switcher this morning, my first in large scale, next I have those S4's on the list...Wish me luck, once again thanks for the encouragement and support.

Dave

[Anonymous]

Real men do it outside. I f your are dorc ed to run your trains indoors due to bad eather etc do it in a more economical gauge.

G scale is for outside work, due to its rugged nature and the type of bloke or shiela that gets involved.

Rgds ian

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Real men do it outside. I f your are dorc ed to run your trains indoors due to bad eather etc do it in a more economical gauge.

G scale is for outside work, due to its rugged nature and the type of bloke or shiela that gets involved.

Rgds ian

Ian, Ian, Ian, oh my my....

Just as real men can eat quiche, they can also run the biggun's inside if they chose to... its like telling somone they can only drink one brand of beer or be outcast...[V]

[vsmith]

Dave

If you can save your pennies, USA has a spectacular SP B6 0-6-0 switcher, but its $1300 big ones! Also suggested an Aristo 0-4-0 swither w/ slopeback tender would also be a good choice for steam roster. Check out the Dave Barrow plans in the 2004 MR track planning issue. sounds like a LOT of work handlaying track, let us know how the planning goes.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Real men do it outside. I f your are dorc ed to run your trains indoors due to bad eather etc do it in a more economical gauge.

G scale is for outside work, due to its rugged nature and the type of bloke or shiela that gets involved.

Rgds ian

Ian, Ian, Ian, oh my my....

Just as real men can eat quiche, they can also run the biggun's inside if they chose to... its like telling somone they can only drink one brand of beer or be outcast...[V]

Vic, [;)][:)]

Ian just got back from the upper part of the world and things are looking somewhat upside down. But he'll improve, he usually does.[;)][}:)][}:)][;)][:D]

BTW I was going to suggest you could try that Z scale GRR on your layout. Would be a surefire way to work inside! Just keep in mind it takes 8V max.!!

[Anonymous]

Thatrs right Vic real men do not eat that stuff that i can't spell.

Howevr I have tried it sstarted out in my garage at my old place at Chipping Norton in Sydney and it just got bigger and more complex Ihad to move outside and even then it got too big for my yard nd Ihad to move house.

Its getting that way again but Doreen wont move.

Rgds Ian

[Greg Elmassian]

To respond to the original post, given that it is an indoor layout and hand laying track is not a real issue, I would say a person with those capabilities could achieve more of a finescale layout with more prototypical rail and flanges.

If it was me, I would use 1:32 rolling stock, more and more is becoming available, and since it will not be at ground level, the smaller size won't be as big a deal. I settled on 1:29 because 1:32 looked too small all the way on the ground.

The smaller scale would also make your curves "broader" since your area is not super wide, and that would help a bit.

Appearance wise, it would be nice not to have the trucks recessed so far under the bodies (since you are still narrow gauge at 1:29 with G gauge track).

I'd start with MTH because you can get some nice steam at reasonable prices (not as inexpensive as 1:29 though). You could splurge with Aster or other brass products if price was no object, or for that one "special" loco.

The MTH command control system is nice, not as full featured as DCC, but nice.

Indoors, you could achieve trackwork that would be plenty reliable, if it can be done in HO it definitely can be done in 1:32.

If you think you will expand outside later, I would stay with the large flange stuff and 332 rail, and then go to 1:29, where there is the most bang for your buck.

Regards, Greg

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Thatrs right Vic real men do not eat that stuff that i can't spell.

Howevr I have tried it sstarted out in my garage at my old place at Chipping Norton in Sydney and it just got bigger and more complex Ihad to move outside and even then it got too big for my yard nd Ihad to move house.

Its getting that way again but Doreen wont move.

Rgds Ian

AHH HAH!!!! The truth is out! Now I understand alot better!

quote .....it just got bigger and more complex Ihad to move outside and even then it got too big for my yard nd Ihad to move house... unquote

May I be so cursed [;)]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Greg Elmassian

To respond to the original post, given that it is an indoor layout and hand laying track is not a real issue, I would say a person with those capabilities could achieve more of a finescale layout with more prototypical rail and flanges.

If it was me, I would use 1:32 rolling stock, more and more is becoming available, and since it will not be at ground level, the smaller size won't be as big a deal. I settled on 1:29 because 1:32 looked too small all the way on the ground.

The smaller scale would also make your curves "broader" since your area is not super wide, and that would help a bit.

Appearance wise, it would be nice not to have the trucks recessed so far under the bodies (since you are still narrow gauge at 1:29 with G gauge track).

I'd start with MTH because you can get some nice steam at reasonable prices (not as inexpensive as 1:29 though). You could splurge with Aster or other brass products if price was no object, or for that one "special" loco.

The MTH command control system is nice, not as full featured as DCC, but nice.

Indoors, you could achieve trackwork that would be plenty reliable, if it can be done in HO it definitely can be done in 1:32.

If you think you will expand outside later, I would stay with the large flange stuff and 332 rail, and then go to 1:29, where there is the most bang for your buck.

Regards, Greg

Trouble with MTH is their dismals are all modern and outside of the timerange Dave mentioned on another post, 1940-50's was mentioned. To get the engines right for the timeframe Dave will have to use 1/29, seriously the "narrower" track is not THAT noticable if everything is in the same scale.

[van buren s l]

Dave
As a self-proclaimed "pro" I say that with an indoor space 70x25 feet you can do just about any thing you please. Many out door layouts, including mine, are not that big. However, the older and shorter equipment that you envision using will look much better in that space than six axle diesels and modern rolling stock. Good luck and I hope that you enjoy whatever you build!
Bob

[tangerine-jack]

Large scale ie: G can be dicey at best for "exact scale" work. You will be doing a lot of scratch building and bashing, but it can be done.

Now, with that said, and certainly not wanting to minimize your dreams, I have to agree with Ian,
"G scale is for outside work, due to its rugged nature and the type of bloke or shiela that gets involved.".
Grab a shovel, pick and suntan lotion, put away the oragami and Marth Stewart color matching charts, and follow me outside to swat bugs! DIRT- that's what it's all about!



(you know I'm only pulling your leg, OK?[:o)])



[oX)]

[markperr]

I wish I had 70 x 25 OUTDOORS to work with. I envy your possibilities. Don't be put off by the mad Aussie.

Mark

[Anonymous]

Jack mate; how many times can i agree with you.

I know some of us live in some very bad places as far as weather is concerned and inside is an only oprion because of this. I recall a discussion between two blokes who lives in a mountainous region of North America and the winds were sp strong they used to blow their track away and they had to build high banks to stop the buffeting of the wind.

But even so when you go insuide you can madel a smaller gauge and get a lot more for your money.

Rgds ian

[RhB_HJ]

Dave et al

Getting back to the original post:

I guess the rail question has been sorted out - handlaid track with Code215 rail. BTW you can get just about all the hardware if you want to do "to scale" on the track front.
If you handlaid in S scale, 1:32 is twice as easy since it is twice the size. I assume it will be 1:32 since you're planning on a scale model.
1:29 is just a funny compromise which came about because someone needed the extra WOW factor. You won't require that extra with 70 x 25ft indoors!!!
BTW it doesn't hurt to double check some of the measurements of the 1:29 stuff, there are a few surprises where you will say: "Interesting that it is this close to 1:32!". Same goes for running gear of engines and cars.

Don't let yourself be distracted by the "Large Scale is for outside" crowd. There have been 1:32 indoor layouts a plenty long before LGB thought of narrow gauge in 1:22.5 or the other guys in 1:24 running on 45mm track gauge. Not to mention the 1:29 compromise.

The rugged nature that is being referred to can also be translated as - in many cases - lack of detail and/or detail that is out of scale. You don't worry about rugged when doing Large Scale indoors, reliability YES, but that isn't the same. Anyone having a quibble, look in your thesaurus under "ruggedness"![;)][}:)][;)][:p]

Looking forward to seeing the first pictures!!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Jack mate; how many times can i agree with you.

I know some of us live in some very bad places as far as weather is concerned and inside is an only oprion because of this. I recall a discussion between two blokes who lives in a mountainous region of North America and the winds were sp strong they used to blow their track away and they had to build high banks to stop the buffeting of the wind.

But even so when you go insuide you can madel a smaller gauge and get a lot more for your money.

Rgds ian

Ian,

Dave wanted to know if it's possible and how it can/could be done inside.

Some of us had large to very large layouts in the smaller scales and say "been there, done that!" and never mind the T-shirt!

I had a 29 x 29ft room full of HOm modeled on the RhB, handlaid all the track including what seemed like a gazillion double-slip switches. For a full operating session we once required 13 people - that was before I said "Enough already!" and simplified things. So we could get by with 8 people.

I can assure you that Dave will have no camber problems inside since the roadbed will be as solid as any of the smaller scales - unless he opts for super realism and models the decrepit state of some of the branchlines.

Besides some of us have been the mainline route with umpteen engines, modeling a branchline takes care of the big-ticket engine outlay - one just doesn't need more than three or four engines. And I doubt very much, from what I've read thus far, that Dave plans on running in merry circles. There's plenty of action on a branch line without studying the variety of tulips or roses along the right of way.
If you get a chance get the Aug, Sept, Oct MR and have a look what Koester is doing in Large Scale.

Of course that's strictly my opinion. [;)][:)][:D][}:)][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

HJ

I wasn't concerned about the camber problems, I think this is a subject that only one or two people on this forum understand. I know Troy and Kim do, we had a fairly lengthy discussion on the subject and I cannot stress enough the importance of getting it right or you may have ongoing problems and never know why you have them. Many strange problems I have seen on several layouts and the person involved could not explain them or understand why he had them. The overall result with this sort of problem may be just the opposite to what you expect.

If you have never had an unexplained derailment on your layout or and unexplained decoupling, you obviously have the problem beat and congratulations.


rgds Ian