Outside third rail

[underworld]

Does anyone have experience modeling an outside third rail???

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underworld

[Curmudgeon]

Yes.

[underworld]

Ok....could you give details??? And would you give details??? [:p]

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underworld

[Curmudgeon]

What do you want to know?
I was waiting for specific questions.

I still have some pickups somewhere I took off some of my engines when I 2-railed them years ago.
I think one big pike still exists in Texas or some such.

You have to have an outside rail for one leg of power. It sits up on chairs. This can be done with brass nails or screws, with smaller scale brass rail soldered to it.
You can swap from side to side (the pickup shoes stick out both sides), so when you get a diverging track at a turnout, you swap to the other side.
The outside rail IS a tad higher than the stock rails.
I just can't rtemember the spec.

The shoes are just bars that stick out both sides, spring-loaded, in a mount that is screwed to the chassis (and insulated from it).

EDIT: I dug out one set of shoes. Brass square stock, spring loaded, looks like a handlebar moustache when you look at it. I think I have others.

The question is, did you inherit some and want to run it, or do you want to outside some Lionel stuff?

TOC

[underworld]

Thanks! I have some pre war Marklin gauge1. So it's 3 rail AC. I used to see the track at shows being practically given away....but at the time I didn't have any trains for it.....now I have the trains but no track. I did pick up some GarGraves track and it wasn't a bad price....$5.00 for a 37" section of flex track. They make switches in gauge1 but only 2 rail!!! I picked up some Lionel G track from a fried for real cheap....$1.00 per section and I thought about adding a third rail to the center. I saw this done once with Peco HO track, The guy had some pre war Hornby and even though pre war Hornby track is plentiful, he really liked the Peco track. He just put in extra track nails in the center and soldered wire to the tops. I figured I could do the same. Then I started to think that if I had to add the rail I could do one on the outside. I think that would also make it easier to deal with for the switches. Do you have any pictures of the models that you did?

underworld

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[Curmudgeon]

It really wasn't a good deal.
Primarily, insulation of drivers and trucks, plus power routing through sand-cast bronze switchpoints wasn't stellar.
When that got better, most everyone went 2-rail.

GarGraves sure DID make 3-rail switches. I have dozens on my 3-rail layout, my friend about 2 miles from me has even more.
Ross makes them, as does 3rd rail, eye think.

It's a lot of mucking around to get the outside rail the correct height, consistent all around, with the right "drop" to your shoes.

All of mine have been converted to 2-rail.
All I could do is take a photo of the pickup assembly and the bottom of the chassis showing the tapped holes where it mounted.

I could dig out my catalogs from the 30's and 40's and maybe make copies of the outside third parts.

I just looked, GarGraves still does make 3-rail switches.
http://www.gargraves.com/switches.php#o

TOC

[John Busby]

Hi underworld
They are coming to take you away ho ho he he[:D]
Just a thought here if you are mad enough to want out side third rail
find out if Peco do the out side third rail kit for G1 this will have the insulators rails ect.
I know they do it for OO but not sure if they do a kit for G1
if they don't add some white ceramic beads to the shopping list might as well
make it obviouse its the outside 1500 VDC power rail[}:)]
just dont tell people its only 12 to 24 V then they will leave it alone.
regards John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Busby

Hi underworld
They are coming to take you away ho ho he he[:D]
Just a thought here if you are mad enough to want out side third rail
find out if Peco do the out side third rail kit for G1 this will have the insulators rails ect.
I know they do it for OO but not sure if they do a kit for G1
if they don't add some white ceramic beads to the shopping list might as well
make it obviouse its the outside 1500 VDC power rail[}:)]
just dont tell people its only 12 to 24 V then they will leave it alone.
regards John

Are you talking about dual guage?

[John Busby]

Hi captain C
No third rail power suply for traction. its used a lot on subways
and some serface lines.
Very quick and easy to pick the out side rail is higher sits on insulators.
if in a station area has a wooden duct type arangement around it to stop accidental contact with the side of the rail and will possably have a warning sign about it. and it does have 1500 VDC when live.
Modeling it is just as insane as dual gauge I know i have some dual gauge trackage.
where was the picture taken ??
regards John

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Busby

Hi captain C
No third rail power suply for traction. its used a lot on subways
and some serface lines.
Very quick and easy to pick the out side rail is higher sits on insulators.
if in a station area has a wooden duct type arangement around it to stop accidental contact with the side of the rail and will possably have a warning sign about it. and it does have 1500 VDC when live.
Modeling it is just as insane as dual gauge I know i have some dual gauge trackage.
where was the picture taken ??
regards John

I believe that is somewhere in the Mid-Atlantic (east Coast) of the United States, like Pennsylvania. I posted more pics of that railroad under the other thread on abandoned suprs.

In this case, the rail is for dual use. The switches (points) are the most complicated piece of mess I have ever seen.

[GP-9_Man11786]

There are two styles of ouside third rail prototypes. The Pensylvania rialroad used a third rail system in which the third rail pick-up shoe rode on top of the rail. There is also the New York Central style in which the shoe ran underneath the thrid rail.Both are still in use by the Long Island Railroad and Metro-North.

[ttrigg]

Underworld

I have (hidden somewhere in the garage) some old Marklin HO, with the "third rail" on the centerline, small vertical "tabs" in the middle of the ties formed the "third rail" and a large "horn" hung down below the engine. Made switching rather precarious. The way I solved everything was to convert to pantographs for all of my Marklin that wanted to use the "centerline third rail". After the pantograph conversions I had no problems at all, (except for that one 4-6-2 steamer with the odd looking pantograph hanging off the coal tender.) I cannot speak with any experience in Large Scale, but third rail operations in both N and HO scales are a serious pain in the tail feathers. My solution in both of those scales was the pantograph.

[underworld]

Curmudgeon GarGraves does make the three rail switches in O and in Standard gauge but not in gauge 1....I even called then to ask. They said there wasn't enough demand for three rail gauge 1 switches. I don't know if they used to make them but they don't now.

John BusbyYeah....mine is only 20 volts....but it is AC!!! This would probably be one of the more sane projects that I've undertaken!!! [:p]

Capt CarralesThird rail for power. Cool dual gauge picture!

GP-9_Man11786I'll probably be doing the rail with top side pick up.

ttriggThe loco I have is a 4-6-2 steamer, it will look a bit odd with a pick up shoe on the side but a little less noticeable than a pantograph! Hats off to anyone that scratch builds a catenary system!!!

underworld

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[Curmudgeon]

I kept thinking you wanted outside third "0" gauge.
Never seen it in #1 ga.
Why don't you fix the loco to run on 2-rail?
We used to do that in the old days, too.
Lotsa work, but work it does.
TOC

[ttrigg]

underworld

If you know of anyone looking for an overhead system, I've got almost 150 feet in HO, and a little over 300 ft in N scale. I suppose I could look into doing some overhead out in the garden, but why. Just because a person has done something before does not mean they must do it again!!!!!!!

[underworld]

Curmudgeon What does it take to modify a 3 rail loco to 2 rail....other than insulating one side from the other. When you convert I presume you run on DC??? Since it is a pretty rare loco, would I have to likely do any drilling or cutting???

underworld

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[underworld]

ttrig I don't know off the top of my head but I'll ask around. Sounds like it would be worthwhile to take to a train show. The third rail I'd be doing would be inside.....I live in an apartment so no garden. I'm looking into buying some property though.

underworld

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[Curmudgeon]

Drilling AND cutting.
You will have to cut the tyres off one side of the drivers, and fill with JB Weld.
You will need a jewelers round coping saw, small drill bits, and epoxy, in addition to MUCH patience!
Tender wheelsets, lead and trail, you simply swap out and SAVE the old ones!
You can put a rectumfrier in on an AC motor and it will work like a DC motor.
But don't cut until you're ready to do it.
Then contact me.
TOC

[Anonymous]

Yes, I am back....Old Bluebonnett 71
Looking at O this time and finding that most UV track will bust 1st at the tab that holds the track on.
To the other Guys I know.......I know ya'lls want me to go Garden but just ain't going to make.
Graves does make ties that are wooden which is a plus for no tabs to brake.
[2c]

[Curmudgeon]

Well.......
Being in sunny Texas, wood might work.
Primary reason for GarGraves UV stabilised plastic ties was up here in the Pacific North West, two years and the wood was gone.

TOC

[Anonymous]

TOC,

I respect your views and know you speak the truth about the wood.
But does any one know what wood they use? If Canadan Cedar it would not be a problem.
As I was going to hand make my rail using the Canadan Cedar ties. [:p]

[ttrigg]

Anyone tried "Southern Yellow Pine"? About 5~6 years ago, on instructions from SHMBO I "built" several small "birdhouses" for the wife to set on the ground between her roses. I used SYP, cut into 5/16 x 5/16 strips, nailed and glued (liquid nails) then painted on three layers of "Green Wood Preservitive" from Home Depot. After the preservitive was dried by three days I painted with house paint. These things have been setting on the ground for 5~6 years and no sign of rot. When I say on the ground, I also mean, wetted by the sprinler system 4 days per week.

[Curmudgeon]

It ain't cedar.
It's dark-stained white wood.
No cedar smell to it.
Local guy, years ago, laid three 3-rail loops outside, had to replace the track every one-two years as the ties rotted away.
He claims he contacted GarGraves and they then made UV Stabilized plastic ties, which he bought and used.
I have similar wood (looks like it when you cut or break a tie) on Hughes Rail, a #1 gauge track product manufactured in the Pacific Northwest probably 40 years ago.
It was indoor stuff, the aluminum rail was not flat on the bottom, had a tang that set into two grooves in the ties.
Started out with 65 feet of it, I have one curve on one spur left.
The ties just rotted and even split.
There was nothing you could do other than make more ties, and I wasn't going to get into that.
TOC

[underworld]

Western Cedar is great rot resistant wood. I've seen many barns that were built with it that are well over 100 years old and they look really good.

underworld

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[underworld]

CurmudgeonOuch! I definately don't want to drill or cut on this one. What about disconnecting the pick ups and running it DC off of a battery car?

underworld

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[Curmudgeon]

What you do is drill 4 small holes in the outer edge of the wheel near the tyre.
Then, you assemble a jeweler's coping saw through one hole, and not very neatly work towards the next hole.
Pull the saw out, insert in next hole and continue, so you have 1/4 cut, 1/4 solid, 1/4 cut, 1/4 solid.
Fill with JB Weld.
Do the next driver axle.
Once all done and hard, start over doing the uncut sections and epoxying them.
Have you made sure someone didn't do that back in the 40's?

The only problem with a battery car is once it's on the track, if not insulated, nothing else can run.

TOC

[underworld]

I think the only alteration that was done to this loco was being made into a 4 6 2 from a 4 4 2. It was a kit that was usually done by the dealer, or you could buy
it and do the mod your self. Very ingenious way to insulate the wheels! I think that I might try that with something newer. Maybe I could find some replacement wheels for this one and modify those. It would probably be the only train on the track as the gauge 1 Marklin stuff isn't cheap! [:p] If I went the battery car route, do I put a rectifier in line with the motor? JB weld is great stuff,
I found this other stuff that is similar....it is called PC 7. It's more the consistecy of toothpaste so it is good to use on things that require a bit more body. It comes in little metal cans and there are several different formulas for different applications. You can find it at most hardware stores. I do still use JB weld though as it is much easier to find than the PC 7.

underworld

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[underworld]

Here is their website for PC 7

http://pcepoxy.com/productsnew.asp

underworld

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