Just getting started

[Anonymous]

I'm a landscape designer and builder who specializes in high end waterfall garden ponds and I wi***o incorparate a garden railroad into a garden pond I am designing.

I need as much help as anyone is willing to give me.

What manufacturers do you railroad pros recommend? What scale do you perfer? 1:22 or 1:29?

I noticed that the train locos. have 3 #s such as 2-8-2 ...what do these numbers mean?

I want a high quality durable train with good details requiring little maintanence.

I am planning on building a pond display at a local garden center and want to promote garden railroading at the same time. The layout I plan to begin with must be simple. A continuous loop of track that will go thru a tunnel behind the waterfall and a bridge over a corner of the pond.

Who makes the best trains for the money with good details?

I don't know where to start.

The area I have for a railroad is about 25'x25'x25' in a triangular shape. Any suggestions on a transformer? Can I do this for under $2,000.00

HELP ME get started please. I've been wanting to get into garden trains for years and now is the time to finally do it, I just need to be pointed in the right direction.

Thanks Paul2

[kstrong]

If you're designing a garden railroad for a turn-key kind of display, I'd lean towards LGB locomotives for motive power. They've got a long history or reliability in such circumstances. They're a bit less detailed, and generally not quite "to scale," but they're durable. A very close second would be diesels from Aristocraft or USA Trains. They're proving to be equally reliable, but don't have the 35 year track record that the LGB locos do.

As for scale, this being a display layout, one could easily say it doesn't really matter, as the viewers won't be able to tell, anyway. Having said that, I'd try to stick with the 1:29, simply because you may as well have trains that look like what people see running today.

When it comes to a power supply, you'll want a good one for an industrial installation such as this. I've been rather impressed with Bridgewerks' power supplies < www.bridgewerks.com >, but any of the 10+ amp power supplies will suit your needs quite well.

There should be no reason why you shouldn't be able to do this for under $2,000. The transformer will run you the most, probably between $200 - $400 depending on model. The loco around $200, rolling stock averaging around $65 per car. Given your space constraints, I'd imagine your total track would be well less than 100', so figure $400 for track. I'd go with Aristocraft's stainless steel track for a commercial installation. So, for two locos (always good to have a spare), 10 cars, track and transformer, you come in at around $1650.

As for the three numbers, they refer to the wheel arrangements for steam locomotives. It's how they are classified. It's called the Whyte classification system. < http://www.toytrains1.com/whyte.htm > A steam locomotive has up to three types of wheels--pilot wheels, drivers, and trailing wheels. The pilot wheels are at the front of the locomotive, and their job is to lead the locomotive into and out of curves. The driving wheels are the large wheels that actually move the engine and train along. The trailing wheels are behind the driving wheels, and support the weight of the firebox. So, a 2-8-2 locomotive has two pilot wheels (one axle), 8 driving wheels (4 axles) and two trailing wheels (1 axle.)

Various wheel arrangements had different names, so when you hear folks talk about a "mogul," "consolidation," Pacific," etc., they're referring to specific wheel arrangements.

Some of the more common wheel arrangements:

0-4-0 OO
0-6-0 OOO
2-4-0 o OO
2-6-0 o OOO "mogul"
2-8-0 o OOOO "consolidation"
2-8-2 o OOOO o "mikado"
4-4-0 oo OO "American"
4-4-2 oo OO o "Atlantic"
4-6-0 oo OOO "Ten-Wheeler"
4-6-2 oo OOO o "Pacific"

Occasionally, you'll see wheel arrangements with 4 numbers, such as 4-8-8-4. This means that the locomotive is "articulated," meaning it has two separate sets of driving wheels. The web site linked to above has a rather comprehensive list of wheel arrangements, their names, as well as photos of each example.

Hope this helps.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

Hi Paul,
Not a lot to add to Kevins advice. I would certainly go with Aristo or USA diesels for this project, don't mix them because they have slightly different couplers and the Aristo needs a bit of filing to get them to mate correctly. I have a USA diesel running in the garden at the moment with 3 cars behind it, the speed is turned down real slow and my 5 amp unit won't feel a thing. The diesels will run all day, reliabley, they have 2 or more motors and look superb. USA do an F unit in Southern Pacific colours and that is a real head turner, go check it out mate!
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[pbjwilson]

Paul2,
I'm Paul too. I was wondering where you live, so that perhaps I or someone on the forum could steer you to some garden railroads in your area. I'm a Chicagoan and know the Chicago Botanic Garden has a great railroad display.

[Bucksco]

You may want to consider starting with an LGB starter set. LGB products are part of a "program" . In other words LGB can supply every element needed from track to trains to accessories. A "one stop shop" so to speak. LGB starter sets and track expansion packs are designed to help the beginner get a better understanding of garden railroading and have a great reputation for durability and reliability. LGB also has a world class service department. Visit the LGB website http://www.lgboa.com and look under "downloads" for a number of downloadable .pdf files that describe the basics as well as track plans etc.... You can also call the 800 number and request beginnner information.

[Anonymous]

I can't thank all of you enough!!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my questions.

I have a couple more questions....

First question is are there any steam locomotives that could be run for 8 hours at a time?

I had planned on building a old time setting around the railroad. Water wheel mill house, a stone lighthouse... I was hoping to do an old time theme. If Diesel is the only way to go for dependability then I'll have to take that route but I was hoping for a steam locomotive.

I live on the New Hampshire seacoast so I suppose I could use the Boston & Maine diesel in the color blue by USA trains. I don't think the LGB look nearly as good as the USA's or aristocraft's trains from the pics I've seen on line.

Next question... I have been looking around online and the prices are alot higher than $65 for rolling stock. Seems $115 is the average.

Who has a reasonable price for trains and are there pictures of the cars?

As far as track goes the stainless steel seems incredibly expensive. Can anyone give me a good suppliers web site? How long will the brass track hold up to continous use?

I'm probably going to have to buy all the train supplies myself. This display I'm planning started off as just a waterfall and pond but I just built a waterfall at another garden center 2 miles away from this garden center and wanted to do something different. I'm in the discussion stage of doing a waterfall pond display but the railroad around a pond has been something I have wanted to do for years now. I hope that the garden center has the vision to see that garden railroading is beginning to take off but theres nobody doing them in my area.

If they won't support the funding of the railroad, I will buy it and build it for my own amusement and for my marketing campaigne. It seems like stainless steel track is going to bankrupt me though.

I'm between a rock and a hard place. I want to do this so bad I can taste it, but I can't afford to spend more than $2,000 and I don't want the railroad to become a maintanence nightmare either.

I should probably just do the waterfall and pond but I love trains and I love to create things that are different from what everyone else is doing. If people see a waterfall, they want a waterfall, so if they see a train, they might want a train.

My wife thinks I'm nuts because I just spent three weeks building a waterfall pond display for a garden center for free labor as a method of promoting my ponds and now I want to build a railroad around a pond for another garden center. I'm not building this next pond for free but I'm going to give them a "sweet deal" that they won't be able to refuse. Now I'm ready to add a railroad into the deal.

I haven't suggested the railroad yet, I'm still researching if its practical or not. If I build it I will try to get a local "high end" Home and Garden magazine I'm planning on contacting anyways to do an article on my waterfall ponds and garden railroading if this works out.

I want to take my landscapes to the next level and the waterfall pond / garden railroad is the direction I want to move towards. I've layed enough brick to last a life time and I want to start doing things that are fun and appreicated.

Paul2

[kstrong]

If you want an old time steam locomotive that's 100% bulletproof, look for LGB's mogul. There are many different versions of this loco, and they range in price from around $400 up to $1200, depending on if it has sound, digital command control, as well as general appearance. I don't think there are many garden railways that don't have an LGB mogul on the roster, they're as close to "old faithful" as you're going to find.

The good news is that if you're going with an old time steam theme, your rolling stock options just got MUCH cheaper. You can buy Bachmann's rolling stock for around $40 per car. These cars come with couplers that will mate with the LGB "hook and loop" couplers, have metal wheels, and while a bit rustic in terms of detail, will be more than adequate on a display railway. They have both freight and passenger cars, so you can build whatever kind of train you wish.

The stainless steel track is a bit more expensive, but from a maintenance standpoint--especially in a commercial application--it'll be well worth it. Stainless has the advantage of not oxodizing like brass or nickel silver rail does, so the cleaning is far less periodic. (You still have to clean it occasionally, if only to knock off the dirt after a rainstorm.) The brass will certainly hold up as long as the stainless steel, but you will need to clean it more often.

As for price, shop around, and check the ads in GR. Some of the more popular mail order houses include (in no particular order). The prices I quoted were from the St. Aubins ad in the latest issue.

St. Aubins Station < www.lgbpola.com >
Ridge Road Station <www.ridgeroadstation.com >
Watts < www.wattstrainshop.com >
Trainworld/Trainland < www.trainworld.com >
San-Val < www.san-val.com >
Wholesale Trains < www.wholesaletrains.com >

Hope this helps.

Later,

K

[RhB_HJ]

Paul2,

Sounds interesting!

I have one suggestion; regardless of which trains you buy, do yourself a favour and make sure that who is doing the maintenance is clear right from the start. [;)][;)]
If you have to run each time the train stops - for whatever reason - you will not be a happy camper!

[Bucksco]

Good point HJ!
Maintenance will be of paramount importance if this is a display that will be running constantly. It might be wise to have 2 or even 3 of the same engine so that if one is down for maintenance you have a backup. It might also be a good idea to automate the layout so that it can be started with the push of a button and only run for a few minutes at a time thus saving wear and tear on the equipment.

[Anonymous]

You guys are the BEST!!!!

If I go with the LGB Mogal for the engine, What brands besides Bachmann would be compatable for rolling stock?

By the way, the stainless steel track is nowhere near as expensive as I thought it was. I was looking at a site that did not make it clear that there were 12 pieces of track for the price. I thought it was each piece of track. I can go stainless steel and remain on budget.

I also like the idea of having a back up loco just in case. I have a feeling that I'm going to be doing the maintanence on the train just as I do the pond maintanence. Its in my best interest to keep my projects that are for displays looking and working in excellent condition. I would be doing more harm than good if my displays are allowed to go down hill after I build them.

I'm a detail fanatic and don't want somebody who doesn't care to be working on my creations that I put my heart and soul into building. Both of the garden centers are within 2 miles of my house and I go to both on a regular basis.

Being around my displays for small amounts of maintanence is part of my marketing plan. It gives me the chance to talk to people and show pictures.

Paul2

[kstrong]

Cars compatible (in scale) with the Bachmann cars:

Aristocraft's "Delton Classics" series of cars,
LGB's wood box cars, flat, gondola, tank car, stock car--anything that doesn't "look" modern.
Hartland's equipment.

All of these are great looking cars, and should work very well for you.

Good luck, and post photos as you go!

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

A lot of the stuff mentioned above is not really applicable for a professional installation. these blokes like me are mainly backyarders and have little concept of what is needed for a professional highly reliable installation that will enhance you good name not blacken it.

I have a mate that does those trains that run around Sushi bars and he would not touch anything but LGB, the biggest simplest and most rugged that you can get. If you do not do this the down time and maintenace will either ruin you financially or ruin you good name. neither are very nice and if you ignore what i have said; do so at your own peril.



Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

A lot of the stuff mentioned above is not really applicable for a professional installation. these blokes like me are mainly backyarders and have little concept of what is needed for a professional highly reliable installation that will enhance you good name not blacken it.

I have a mate that does those trains that run around Sushi bars and he would not touch anything but LGB, the biggest simplest and most rugged that you can get. If you do not do this the down time and maintenace will either ruin you financially or ruin you good name. neither are very nice and if you ignore what i have said; do so at your own peril.



Rgds ian

Could you ask your friend what type and model locomotive he runs for commercial use? I also would like the name and website of a good LGB distribtor with a good variety of trains at a reasonable price. Could you ask if the LGB Steam Mogal is a possiblity or the Steam Mikado? Or does your friend recommend a diesel and what models are good?


Now you got me scared I'm getting in over my head. I need to find a garden railroad club on the seacoast of southern New Hampshire or northern Massachusetts.

[monkeyman2]

sounds like a fun project! i agree with what every one else said. may i suggest a track cleaning car? you can run them and they clean your track! ALOT faster and you can get them in cabooses and such and run them perhaps once a month or a week to keep your track clean without using one of those little eraser things like i have used before takes a long time even for a oval but with a track cleaning car takes only a few loops around and done!

[Anonymous]

Paul I am working on it, I don't like to contact him of a weekend as that is his living.

I know it is a big LGB loco and he also only runs LGB gondolas, he gets them by the pair as that is how they are marketed by LGB. Steel wheels with bal bearing would be a big help also.


Rgds Ian

[markperr]

As someone who actually has installed a commercial system in a restaurant that ran their OVERHEAD trains about ten hours a day, seven days a week, I highly recommend nothing but LGB and I'll tell you right up front, at that level of running, a Mogul will run about three months before you need to give it any attention and that will be simply to lightly lube the side rods. As for the power block, it'll run forever. If you'll be running continuously for extended periods of time and are just going to have a basic loop, then you should consider periodicly turning your engine and cars around so as to evenly wear the flanges. Many people don't consider this because their home layouts have both left and right turns and the train wears evenly, but in this restaurant that I installed, it was a simple loop.

You say that you're on the New Hampshire Seacoast and are installing this in a garden center. Is this pond set up indoors or outdoors? Are you close enough to the coast to smell the ocean? Seriously! That's as good a reason as any to use stainless instead of brass. Being a former Navy man, I can attest to how quickly brass will corrode after just one day in the salt air.

As for conductivity, as long as your train is moving, the natural abrading effect of the wheels moving on the rails will keep conductivity pretty good. It's when you shut down for the night that the corrosion has a chance to take hold. I live in the midwest and need only go a few days without running and I'll have to clean the track. A simple track cleaning devise is to use a drywall sanding pole with a green scotch-brite pad on it. You can also use the finest drywall sanding screen you can find but i'd recommend nothing more course than 150 grit. Just the weight of the pad on the rails will clean them pretty quickly.
I would also suggest connecting your power to the rails at five or six different points. this will help to keep your train running at the same speed throughtout the entire layout and will help overall with conductivity.

One other thing, and I probably should've mentioned this first thing out. You need to decide whether you want to run modern mainline diesel or old time steam. I can't say which diesel engine will treat you the best as I only have two, an Aristo RS-3, which is a very old first generation diesel and an Aristo U-25B which is also an older diesel but more modern looking. My U-25B has not been an exceptional runner but my RS-3 is a monster and i've got probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 500-600 hours of running time on it with virtually no maintenance except a little axle lubing at the journal bearings (this is the outermost part of the axle where it is attached to the outside frames.

Aristocraft stainless track costs about the same as LGB brass track. Aristo brass track is about half the price of LGB and the two are completely compatible. All three are code 332 which means they are .332 inches thick from top to bottom. Aristocraft uses screws on their track clamps. LGB does not but their clamps are tighter and heavier than Aristo's. I give Aristo the edge only because of the clamp screws and cost. Otherwise, they are completely the same. Speaking of completely the same, USA Trains tracks are identical in every way to Aristo's. Many of us speculate that they are made at the same factory and that half the track is dumped into aristo boxes and the other half into USA boxes. As for switches, LGB only. Nothing else is as good without a lot of up front work to fix conductivity issues.

Security!!!! A BIG issue. If the unit is outdoors, you have to find a way to secure your train each night. Whether you hide it in a tunnel or take it off the tracks and bring it indoors under lock and key, those trains ain't cheap and you need to protect your investment.

hope this helps.

Mark

[Anonymous]

Markperr,

You have given me many things to consider that I overlooked or was unaware of.

Security is something I totally overlooked. This display will be outdoors at a garden center and theft never occured to me until now. I'm planning on having the train go through a tunnel behind the waterfall I'm planning so I'll have to make sure its big enough to park the train in at night out of sight.

Thanks for the suggestion of connecting the track to power in multiple locations, something I never would have thought of. Also reversing the train direction is something that I would have never thought of.

I can't thank all of you who have responded to my numerous questions enough! I know everybody has limited time and I really appreciate all the time and thought you have all put in to educating me.

I'm definately going to go with LGB Trains. I've heard nothing but praise so far and I like the sound of a"bulletproof" train.

Stainless steel track for sure. I'm about 5 miles from the ocean and stainless has to be the best choice for the conditions I'm dealing with.

If anyone can think of more things I should be taking into consideration while I'm still in the planning stages please let me know.

My next challenge is to figure out the track layout before I order the track. I'm concerned about how to figure the curves before I see the track. I'm thinking that I should figure out the track layout and build the waterfaal and pond around the layout of the track. I'm going to want to do a bridge over a section of the pond and have the train go through the "mountain" that will form the waterfall. Its hard to figure the curves without having the track first.

I'm going to do a footing of 3/4 crushed stone mixed with stone dust known in the northeast as "Pac" just as I would for the base of a walkway, compacting it in 3" deep layers until its 9"s thick or more. I'll do a base 18" wide because that is the width of the compactor. I believe in going overboard on a footing so I never have to worry about it again. I plan on having the track slightly raised above the mulch bed so I won't have to worry about heavy rain washing mulch onto the track. There are so many things to take into consideration, I'm sure I'm overlooking many things. If you have any ideas that I should consider I welcome all the help I can get. You've all given me many things that I needed to know already and I'm sure you all have your special tricks that only come from experience, and I need your experience to suceed at this.

Without this website and all of the help you have all given me this would be impossible. I would have made monumental mistakes but I'm feeling I'm on the "right track" now. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Can't thank you all enough for your input and keep it coming because I have alot to learn in a short time.

Paul2[8D]

[GP-9_Man11786]

When wiring your track, you should use 14-guage wire that is used to wire houses. What I did on my garden railway was run a loop of this wire beneath the track with connections every 3 - 5 Ft. Every joint should be soldered, coated with conductive grease and covered with a wire nut. I have no voltage drop problems on my line what so ever thanks to this.

As for a bullet-proof diesel, the USA Trains NW-2 is like the energizer bunny, it just keeps on going and going and going.

For a track cleaning car, I recomend the "Trackman G-2000." It costs about $120 but it works wonders. However when it comes to looks, this car is purly functional.

For ballast, you should use what are called "crusher fines." This is really fine dust left over from crushing either bluestone or granit. When it is wet, it will set up like concrete and provide a good firm base for your track.

[Puckdropper]

Before you do anything that will be shown off, get a small amount of materials and do a test layout at home. You'll run in to all kinds of things that you never thought about and hopefully resolve most of your problems.

[smcgill]

Have you visited trains on track in Amherst N.H.?
Also there is a garden club in N.H.
Go visit!!
Good luck!

[Anonymous]

I would reccomend contacting LGB of America. They have a great deal of experience and knowledge about setting up commercial type displays. As has been said before, LGB is the most reliable brand on the market. Their customer support is excellent and their support people have proved to be very knowledgable and helpful. Where better to go for information that directly to the manufacturer?

[tangerine-jack]

I have to concure with Iandor, for a contract job it's LGB all the way. Hang the cost, pass it on to the customer, and give a high quality job you can put your name on. For a self made home layout, then all the other options are fine.

If you look a few pages back, there was a lengthy discussion of track security on this forum maybe 6 or 7 months ago. I think it was concluded that a good fence is a good investment (even a short one for an outdoor display like you are planning) and lock up the rolling stock at night. There was no consensus on lighting and security cameras, although I am in favor of both.

Good luck and welcome to the Large Scale world!


[oX)]

[Anonymous]

Paul it is not often i agree with anyone much on this forum but what Capt Turk has said is what i think to the letter. I have spoken to my mate about it and what he had to say was that he uses a big simple strong deisel and pulls gondolas that you can buy from LGB in pairs he couldn't remember the number either. LGB have plenty of steam engines that are big and strong and have two motors (important) as you want them to do their task easy not have to work their littles guts out.


Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

What LGB model steam locomotives are available with 2 motors?

[markperr]

The LGB Mallet comes to mind

Mark

[CandCRR]

Paul2,

Go and visit Charles Ro in Malden Mass (about and hour from you down route 93, the Route 60 exit). They have Aristocraft, LBG, Hartland, Bachman, and USA Trains all on display so you can compare. Sometimes there are store specials, I always over spend my budget when I go there. There are also good Garden RR shops in Manchester and Amherst NH. I have seen much B&M engines and cars at both.

And as stated earlier there is a large Garden RR club in New Hampshire (http://www.nhgrs.com/).

Also look in Garden RR magizines for ideas. I remember seeing ads for professionally built layouts from companies that are fairly local to you. You may be able to call them and get them to give you free advice for possible future work.

There use to be a resturant in Hampstead NH that ran a garden RR on a shelf along the walls. They appeared to have a mix of manufacturers from what I remember and it was always running.

Jaime
Sandown, NH.