Fn3 and Fstd Gauge

[mkblk]

Hi all!

Been away from the site for awhile. Blame having to make a living and the IRS.

When I first envisioned the current configuration of the BVRR which is "Fn3" scale (1:20.3) running on #1 gauge track (45mm), I thought it would be a good idea to incorporate a standard gauge interchange since many 1:1 railroads used this arrangement. Problem is I can find no info on 1:20.3 standard gauge (which would run on about 67mm or so track).

I wonder, is old Lionel "Standard" gauge correct? Or nearly correct? That might make obtaining repro trucks and accessories easier.

One idea I have is to take old Bachmann Big Haulers and reha***heir trucks to "standard" gauge. Unlike the Bachmann 1:20.3 scale trucks which are all molded and of smaller proportions, the 1:22.5 (I think) trucks are bigger and screw together which should allow relatively simple modification in gauge with longer axles and look right for standard gauge with their larger wheels.

Because my railroad is real small, I plan to simply have one dual gauge track leading into the station area. Since all turn-outs go in the same direction, it wouldn't be too difficult to add an additional rail on one side.

Questions:

I realize that I would need "standard" gauge ties, so how can I modify my existing LGB turnouts to accomodate the larger ties?

How much do I have to enlarge Sidestreet Bannerworks 1:20.3 drawings to achieve standard gauge?

What are your thoughts? Any and all comments will be appreciated!

MK

[John Busby]

Hi mkblk
Bad news you don't modifiy your LGB points.
You scratch build an new purpose built dual gauge point.
Been there tried that did not work so my dual gauge 32mm/45mm points are custom made for the job
The good news it does make for interesting operations but be aware it can make things rather interesting to say the least as far as electrics go.
regards John

[Anonymous]

Just had a week off, and don't you know it, my darn back went out!! Got some prices through re this:
dual guage sleeper pack, 5 yards - £31-75
rail for above £49-14
G64 sleeper pack, 5 yards - £30-95
rail for above £32-76
dual guage point £83-00
flat car £86-95

Hi MK,
I've just copy/pasted this from an old topic we had many months ago. Graden Railway Specialists in UK actually make G64 which is 45mm narrow guage and 64mm standard guage. I can't remember their web address, HELP!
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[Anonymous]

Mkblk, there is a company that sells the dual gauge track your after however I'll post back once I find it, I need to check with a guy who turned me onto the site.

[Anonymous]

Here's the site http://www.crofutandironcreek.com/ I guess they don't make it yet but are planning on it. Very interesting site none the less[;)]

[underworld]

Lionel Standard gauge is 2 1/8 inches....not sure how many millimeters that is but if I figured it right 1 inch is 25.4 mm so it would be about 53.9 mm. Lionel Standard gauge works out to be 1:26.59 so I think you will probably want to scratch build.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[kstrong]

If all you're doing is adding a third rail to the outside of your LGB switches, (so only the narrow gauge part diverges), you can do that simply enough, but you'll have to remove the rails from the ties and cast a new frog. Not a major undertaking, but not a one-hour project, either.

As Matt pointed out, there will be dual-gauge tie strips available in the coming months, or you can simply spike your own. Since you'll have to rebuild your switches to custom ties anyway, a few extra feet of track will be a walk in the park.

The track's the easy part. Getting something to run on it is harder.

As for enlarging the GR plans:
They're already built to 1:20.3, so you can't really "enlarge" them by any one specific percentage to get to the new size. You'll have to eyeball it, really. You're not simply enlarging a car to a different scale, rather you're adapting it for a completely different prototype. Standard gauge equipment tends to be on the order of 30% larger than narrow gauge equipment. You can enlarge the plans by that amount, but you'll still find yourself wanting to modify the dimensions a bit. My advice would be to find dimensions for similar standard gauge railroad equipment, then take it from there. If a typical flat car is 40' long by 9.5' wide, and the car in the plan scales to 30', then enlarge the plan by 33% to get the length, and adjust the width to match the standard gauge width. You'll have to change things like grab-iron and stake pocket spacings, brake wheel heights, etc., but that's not difficult. You'll just have to bend two or three more grab-irons.

Trucks:
Trucks are going to be a challenge. Standard gauge trucks are likewise about 30% larger than narrow gauge trucks, so simply widening a B'mann truck isn't going to work. Standard gauge cars ride on 33" wheels, which in 1:20.3 is 1-5/8" diameter. That's a big wheel, and won't fit in any of the common commercial trucks. (I believe Sierra Valley or Gary Raymond makes 33" wheels in 1:20.3, so you can at least get those.) I'm looking at plans for a standard gauge tank car, and the trucks have a wheelbase of 5' 6" (3 1/4" in 1:20.3). Iron Creek Shops (see Matt's link above) may make a standard gauge truck, but they're not cheap.

You may have some luck checking out some of the gauge 3 (64mm) equipment, but since it's virtually unheard of on this side of the pond, you'll have to do a lot of internet searches for European models. Those trucks have a far better chance of being widened to 1:20.3 standard gauge, though they may or may not look like US prototype trucks.

You're embarking on a trip that is currently undiscovered country. Right now, there's almost nothing in terms of support, so you're in for a lot of scratchbuilding. Good luck, and have fun!

Later,

K

[mkblk]

Wow! Did I open a can of worms or what?

Thanks to all for your great responses. I've certainly learned a lot about dual gauge, F in particular. I did find a very interesting website, CumberlandModelEngineering.com. It's not quite ready for surfing, but an email to David Queener was sure enlightening! He wrote me the following:

"Presently I have track gages (for handlaying track) and wheelsets available. Three kinds of freight car truck should be ready by June. And my friend Don Niday (Iron Creek Shops) should have his plastic tie strip in both SG and dual gauge (F and Fn3) available by June. I'm also working on re-gauging the Bachmann 45 tonner (which is a SG engine running on NG trucks as Bachmann sells it) to Standard Gauge. I'm doing the same for an Accucraft Heisler. And I am working on several custom built freight cars for a customer in
England. So there's a lot going on."

So, as you can see, anyone ready to take the plunge in Fstd has some real possibilities. After reading kstrong's response, it really hit me as to just how BIG Fstd really is! I haven't been totally discouraged, though. I would like to add that 3rd rail and eventually the required frog for where the standard gauge and narrow gauge part ways. Since our railroads are never really finished, hopefully I'll get around to it someday.

MK

[underworld]

Keep us posted on your progress.....and pictures of course!

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

See the picture above, make the little engine on the right a Bachmann Annie or some such narrow gauge equipment, the one on the left just make it[;)][:p][:D][:0]

[mkblk]

Matt,

Now there's a purty picture! Look at the size difference. Do you have details on this photo?

Since I'm a rank amatuer, I've been thinking of just using 1:20.3 stuff as my narrow gauge (as is correct for 3') and bigger Bachmann Big Hauler stuff to represent standard gauge. Messing with the trucks is another matter. I know it won't be true scale, but might give the appearance of narrow and standard gauge.

I'll let you know when I ba***hose Bachmann trucks into something wider and run another rail for them to ride on.

MK

[kstrong]

The Big Hauler stuff is actually 1:22.5, so it's a smaller scale than 1:20.3. (Bachmann's "1:20.3" rolling stock isn't1:20.3. They merely labeled it as such, in a rather ill-fated attempt to create a market. It is smaller in size when compared to the Big Hauler rolling stock.) When the Big Hauler stuff is scaled up to 1:20.3, it's on the small end of the size spectrum in terms of prototype proportions. It's simply too small to work for 1:20.3 standard gauge equipment.



1:20.3 standard gauge will be HUGE by comparison to anything that's on the market today. A typical standard gauge 40' boxcar will be 2' long, 6" wide, and almost 8" tall. The Big Hauler box car is 15" long, 4" wide and 5 1/2" tall. If you get a chance to take a look at the Bachmann 45 ton center cab diesel, that will give you an idea of how large F standard gauge will be. The prototype for that locomotive is a standard gauge locomotive that was actually offered with trucks of a wide variety of gauges, ranging from 5' down to 3'. It's a small locomotive by standard gauge standards, and dwarfs almost every piece of narrow gauge 1:20.3 rolling stock on the market.

I'm not trying to discourage you from pursuing F standard gauge, but I don't think you'll get far using commercially available rolling stock as a starting point.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mkblk

Matt,

Now there's a purty picture! Look at the size difference. Do you have details on this photo?

MK

The photo was taken at Washington Station in Washington, PA. The building still stands but is used for storage and such. The Narrow gauge Loco in the pic is one of the Waynesburg and Washington RR Moguls. The other belongs to the Penn RR and I believe is a Hudson.

[mkblk]

Matt & k,

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I know the Big Hauler stuff is actually smaller than the 1:20.3 stuff, but it's bigger! Geez, where is the sense in that! What are these manufacturer's trying to do to us. You're absolutely correct in your statements. For now, I'm just looking for the illusion of Fstd (and a little delusion for myself). Anyone around here that sees my rendition won't know the difference, but I know you guys would!

My theory is that Bachmann took a page out of Lionel's book... and there you go!

MK

[kstrong]

I got to thinking this morning, and I wonder how well the Bachmann "1:20" rolling stock would measure out in 1:29? O gauge rail (32mm) is virtually spot on for 3' gauge track in that scale, and I have to think that given the size differences between that and the Big Hauler 1:22.5 stuff, it would work rather nicely as 1:29 narrow gauge equipment. If it's 20' long in 1:20, then it's 29' long in 1:29--ideal for narrow gauge equipment. The Big Hauler stuff is pretty close for early (1890s) standard gauge equipment in 1:29. Instead of widening the trucks on the Big Hauler stuff, you'd simply narrow the trucks on the smaller "1:20" stuff.

Later,

K

[mkblk]

Kevin,

Thinking can be dangerous! Upon digesting your last, I climbed up into the attic and dug out some old Lionel trucks. Unscrewed the Bachmann "1:20.3" trucks from the 20' flat car and replaced them with the Lionels. What an elegant solution! It all goes together nicely and the couplers (body mounted) still align properly. And it actually looks right. Can't wait for the next train meet so I can scarf up some old "O" gauge arch bars (insulated wheels, of course)!

One major problem though... if I really want to follow through on this, I'd have to rip up the entire BVRR and start all over again. Anybody want a good deal on a bunch of LGB and Aristocraft track and turnouts?

MK

[Anonymous]

mk
how much fer your track?

[mkblk]

train-me,

You're just a little too quick! I should have added... "just kidding". I'm way too lazy to rip it all out and start over again (not that my RR is all that big). I'll just have to be happy (and that isn't too hard) with what I've got. I'll try to be patient and wait and see what Fstd stuff becomes available. For now I can see scratchbuilding a couple of cars, maybe a box and a flat to stage in the projected interchange area. Not going to worry much about motive power, although that GE 44 tonner is a possibility... no it ain't, it's not steam! I can pretend that the standard gauge railroad drops off and picks up late at night under cover of darkness when I'm not around.

At this stage, I really don't know what will eventually happen. I could change my mind in a heartbeat! Advantage of being the CEO, COO and CFO of the BVRR!

MK

[Anonymous]

Attn all, Anybody know of a decent plan I could blow up of a Hudson? I wouldn't mind scratch building a 1:20 standard gauge even if was just a dummy. It would look cool just sitting in the station with maybe a couple smoke units in it to give the effect[;)]