How many Large Scalers do you think there are in your nation?

[Anonymous]

I would like to know US figures, but I am just as curious about the railroaders of the world!

[tangerine-jack]

A tough question. Roughly, you can look at the subscription rate to GRR mag, assume only 20% of all garden RR subscribe, add about another 30% from counter sales, factor in at least 20% error, and you should be in the ball park over in the next county. There are a lot of lone wolves out there doing thier own thing, which is very cool too.

You could take national GRR hobby shop sales figures for the country in question, assume out of the total dollar amount that $100 = 1 modeler, and that gives you a slightly accurate estimation at maybe 30% error.

Barring a more draconian census, we may never know the answer.[%-)]


[oX)]

[Anonymous]

You will never know for sure. There are an awful lot of 'closet' railroaders out there who do their own thing and never belong to any club, or associate with anyone else in the hobby. I'm not sure why. Maybe they fear the stereotype 'train nutter' that the outside media love to use in news stories and are the butt of jokes.

A small LS mail order supplier from my country came to my city and informed us there were a few people he was calling on that lived in our area that brought from him, but did not want to be part of any group or make contact with any other model train people. I was really surprised. I though part of the fun was sharing the hobby with others. Obviously not for these people!

Anyway to answer the question I guess for New Zealand there would be at most maybe 200 people who own LS out of 3.8million population. (this does not count the toy store LS trains for kids).

Glen.

[Kiwi Down Under]

Your question makes one think.
New Zealand is a small country of 4 million people. I live in the capitol city of Wellington and I have an outside train, but if I discount the one going around a small circle in a garden centre I dont know of any other outside garden railway in this City. There is one in Otaki, and I see one from Christchurch on the forum so that makes 3 of us out of 4 million people. I assume there is more, but dont know of them
Tony

[Anonymous]

This is a very good question, as Jack said their are many lone wolfs out there, and I guess I am one. I do not subscribe to any magazine nor do i go to hobby shops; as i think I know everything. The only real contact I have with the main stream of this hobby is this forum, the LGB forum particularly the part where you can complain about MTS and of course i am a member of the G scale of Aus club.

Yet I am really a fairly prominent participant with 130 m track and running a fully fdigital layout with a lot of innovative stuff in the way of tunnels, overpassses and viaduct etc.

I think you would have to survey the clubs to find out; then put a bugger factor in, I used to do a lot of this using exponential calculations to predict stock usage.

The LGB club of Aus has about 80 members attending monthly meetings on a regualr basis. Of course there is the hard core but they get regualr and irregular visits from other interested parties as well.

The main place I go to to buy stuff for this hobby is landscape suppliers and as far as i know I am th eonly customer of my type that they have as the blokes there are all very interested in what we are doing and have never mentioned anyone else.

Rgds Ian

[Anonymous]

Tony, The question was about the number of people, not railways. There are plenty of people out there that have large scale trains, but not necessarly an outdoor railway.
And to grey the issue even more, there are probably even more people who consider themselves large scalers, even though they have no large scale trains.

When I was in N guage there was a guy who turned up to a meeting every month and owned nothing. He told us he was going to build a layout after he made room for it in the garage. A year later he still hadn't cleaned the garage or bought any trains. He was either one of those people that are just all talk, or maybe he just liked looking at other peoples trains and never wanted to own any. Yet he probabaly considered himself an N scaler, so do you count those people or not?

By the way Tony there is (or was) an outdoor railway at the home of Chris J in Paekakariki.

Glen.

[Anonymous]

Rest assured guys, there's one heck of a lot of us. Look at all the major manufacturing companies out there in Europe & the States with a lot being made in China and all the small companies who support the hobby with home produced stuff. It gets sent to the far corners of the planet and when we have a base on the moon you can bet your last penny that there'll be a 45mm track appearing soon! One thing for sure, the manufacturers don't do it for the love of it. I bet there's tens of thousands of us in the UK, the majority quite happy to go it alone and be left alone.
Worlds greatest hobby, (after drinking beer) enjoy!
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[bman36]

Hey everyone,
Very interesting indeed. I wonder if Rene has any stats available to support this all? As for Canada I am amazed at the number of people who have come out of the woodwork from the letter that was printed in GR. For those of you who may not have seen it, I sent in photos and a letter of the Father's Day display I had on the semi. A number of people who I never heard of before contacted me via email. I now know of at least 6 Large Scalers here in Winnipeg when I thought there were none. Taking a wild guess I would say there are 500 to 1000 in Canada. I'm very interested to see if there are any stats out there to support this. Rene???? Later eh...Brian.

[Rene Schweitzer]

Hi guys,

This is an interesting (though difficult) question to answer. I'm afraid I don't have any real numbers--we have 36,000 readers and know that only 1/4 of them belong to clubs. That means there are thousands more who may be hobbyists. It's also difficult to get numbers around the world. There are countries like Britian where garden railroading has been around for nearly a century--yet we have no idea of the numbers there.

The good news, though, is that we know the hobby is growing. The number of clubs, shows, garden railroads open to the public, and garden railroads at places like botanic gardens are increasing every year. That's a positive sign for all of us, no matter what the numbers.

Rene

[vsmith]

I think it would be safe to assume that if the 36,000 are magazines sold thru newstand or subscribers, to me that would mean than at least all of the are large scale afficianados, from armchair modelers to foamer rivet counting scratchbuilders. There are likely a few more that model but dont bother with magazines or only read "serious" magazines like Finescale Railroader or The Gazette. ( I'm not kicking GR, just relating some rivet counter psychology) So assume 40,000 afficianados, Most will have SOME form of large scale items, maybe a mantlepiece engine or a X-mas tree set. Even if only half actually HAD a layout, that would be about 20,000 with layouts. I think the number would be a bit higher, so lets assume 25,000 with layouts. Most are either too far away from a club (or just simply no club) in the area close enough to actively participate or are anti-social reclusive Lone Wolf like me, hehehe. Rene's figure works out to about 9,000 club members nationwide which would make sense considering MOST clubs are centered around larger urban cities or regions. Overall thats a pretty healthy number, could be bigger and as our population of baby boomer HO and N modelers get older (as is happening now) and it gets harder and harder to rerail that $%#@ n-scale engine (I do this now with my HOn30 $%#@) I see large scale only growing, particularly as more and more stuff common to the smaller scales becomes available in LS.

"...The future so bright! , I gotta wear shades.."

[Anonymous]

Hummm? I think we may have to develop some formula to produce a number.

The reason I ask is that I want to know if I am in a minority or majority of the population of hobbiest in general. There are many restrictions (lack of land space, lack of money et al) that prevent some people from getting into the hobby. Additionally, I'm sure there are some "display only" hobbists, Christmas Only types and mueseum types.

I may need to rethink the question...

[tangerine-jack]

Just to throw gas on the fire, do we count restaurants and gift shops with a LS train on display or running? We have several in my area.

I am cut from the same cloth as Ian, maybe we share a relative! But just to clarify, people like us don't "think" we know everything, we "know" we know everything[:-,] I don't belong to a club because I can't stand the game they play with keeping up with the Jones'. I am happy with what I have, if you criticize, I will show you the outer edge of my property. I also do most of my purchasing at garden centers not hobby shops, and I do get a lot of strange looks when I tell them what I'm up to!

Kimbrit is dead on. Manufacturers of anything are in the buisiness to make money, period. Since there are hundreds of manufaturers of LS equipment it stands to reason that the market can support that. Where are all these buyers? Dunno.[%-)]


[oX)]

[markperr]

For the longest time I thought I was pretty much alone in my part of the country withonly a few folks that I knew off having large scale layouts within say, a 50 mile perimeter of my home. About a month ago, I spot what I thought was a new club in my area in the club pages of GR. Turns out that the club has been around for going on fifteen years and they just changed presidents and he gave his hometown as the club address. It was a good fifty miles closer to me than the previous address so it caught my eye. Turns out there are around thirty-five members in this club. Now I have a club to go to each month. It sure makes the hobby more enjoyable. On the bigger issue of how many folks are in the hobby, I don't know that you could use any particular quantifiers to actually come up with a concrete figure. It's good, as Rene says, to know that there are more and more largescale related train shows and, you could probably use attendance as a means of determining growth in the hobby.

Mark

[vsmith]

Maybe I'm weird but I feel like I'm on the Moon sometimes. I live in a major urban area, L.A., in a major sub-urban area, Pasadena, yet I've only met two other LS guys in my immediate area, both of whom I dont seam to get along with. There are 3 LS shops in a 30 mile radius yet no organized clubs or groups are ever mentioned or posted. Maybe its just an nihilistic L.A. thing about my area, or they can tell right away I dont fit their socio/political/religious profile and dont want me, but man, I do feel at times like I'm the only guy doing this out here....So call me Wolfie...owwoooo!

[grandpopswalt]

Hey Vic,

It's not you, it's California. I think there's something to that "fortress California" thing. First you build the house, then you build a wall around it.

My son and his wife lived in their home in the bay area for almost 4 years and really didn't get onto a first name basis with any of their neighbors. They're all nice folks, but they prefer to stay on their own side of the fence. That's probably the main reason I'd love to live out there.

Walt

[Kiwi Down Under]

It seems nany of us have the same problems. If you have a club that tolerates "g" scale near you, you are very lucky. I dont know of any club available to me.
There is a Marklin club which has large scale, but Bachman wheels dont like that track and of course, its Markiln. Dont get me wrong, whenever there is a train show and they have their display I stand there and drool. Nice locos, realistic sound, exact detail is somthing to see, but well beyond my pocket book.

On my web pag I used to have a comment about "lights on, no ones home whenever you mentioned outside trains", well unfortunately its true and perhaps all the G scale modellers here have found that and keep to themselves.

Now I am not exactly a young fellow, kids have left home, but not yet retired but went along to a model train club, didnt say why I was there and there were some oldies dressed in railway hats and uniform playing I remember when..... and they were younger than I.........

I did find one gent who appeared very knowledgable about large scale trains and listened to him with great interest for about 20 minutes. He was very well informed about points, track, voltage drop etc, and went into great depths regarding digital controls, but when I finaly asked him how large his layout was he replied " he has a train set single loop on the dinning room table which takes the salt and pepper around". no kidding...... He never said what scale it was.....
.
I got an article published about my garden train in a model railway magazine and have had some responses, but not one from where I live.

So, I suppose its back under the rock by myself and play with me little trains along with the fairies at the bottom of the garden until the men in white shirts arrive to take me away. ha ha, he he.

Tony

[Anonymous]

This brings up another situation, problem or whatever you like to call it.

We joined the "G" scale club in Sydney where it is largely based when we lived in Sydney. But we have migrated up here to the Sunshine coast to an area famed for its modern outlook and friendlyness.

What an unpleasant surprise we got when we tried to join the yacht club and even worse the local model Railway club.

We wre prominet members of the Royal Motor yacht Club at Newport in Sydney which if you had any idea of this part of the world you would know this is about as classy as you can get in an activity club of any type. We even had a few names and went straight up to the yacht club with our boat safelyy ensconced on the marina. What a disappointment, they were divided, arguing among themselves and other divisions of the club, and they were trying to run the registered club and when they did anything it was only as servants of the Racing division. We lasted 4 weeks and never went back and that was the final straw we sold our yacht.

Then we tried to join the Model Railway club, not as big a disapointment but chauvanism and up yourself attitude were the main factors, and really we had little in common with people who wished to run indoors on those silly little layouts they have.

They range of interestes and the level of inteligence was quite incredibly low.

When they refused to recognise that my wife had attended several meetings was the last straw.

This is a club with about 30 members and is in decline, ie their numbers are slowly falling. This does not compare with the club in Sydney that has hundreds of members and about 80 at each meeting and is in a steady expansion mode.

They knew I was in to G scale and was about to go fully digital and some of the even more stupid members were cvonvinced we were trying to take thir club away from them and really we said very little to anyone, being new we were all ears with nothing to say. We had no real interest in changing anything!

To the best of my knowledge their is only one other person running garden scale in the Sunshine Coast and that person is regarded as mythical.


Regards


ian

[tangerine-jack]

Yup, Ian, that is the same respect I got from the local LS club in my area. I quickly decided I didn't need them, they needed me even less, so off I go. Since I didn't have articulated digital RC locos with direct connections to NASA, nor did I have 15,000 feet of track with hanging gardens of Babylon landscaping, so the snub fest began. In truth, these jerks had more money than any interest in GRR and it was a game to see who could spend the most. Don't need that at all. I have contributions to make, to those who are open to them.

I wonder how many GRR enthusiasts are out there who had the same experience? I feel confident that is the reason the lone-wolfers are just that, and too shy to go public.




[oX)]

[vsmith]

Ian, Jack

That pretty much describes my experience with model RR groups and clubs across the board. I have remained a Lone Wolf precisely because of similar attitudes. IOW if you didnt have the same mindset as the rank and file members you were acitvely excluded. When I was younger and had an active interest in HOn30 I frequented a LHS (no longer with us) that was a good source for narrow gauge and had a narrow gauge club. I was already behind the 8-ball doing HOn30 instead of "Proper" HOn3, but since instead of buying a $1000 Japanese brass Sandy River 2-6-2, I was taking inexpensive Bachmann N gauge drivetrains and converting the bodies to HO, I got shunned. If that wasnt bad enough as soon as they found out my political affiliation (it was not theirs) I was Persona Non Grata from then on, I could still buy my stuff, but I was just another anonomous customer. They would take my money, but not my participation.

So I started doing my own thing early on, it continues to color my perception of the hobby and I still tend to shy away from large group activites like clubs, even open houses at local model RR clubs. The last one I went NO ONE past a freindly lady at the front door said Hello or asked if I was interested in joining or even to bother to explain about the club. They were too busy shooting the breez' with each other or too wrapped up trying to get Train X past Train Z...God forbid you distrurb the conversation with a question. I gave up and left.

[Anonymous]

As Kim said earlier there are loads of garden railway people in the UK and they've been doing it for years.Most of them are the real steam blokes.My next door neighbours son it currently making another 5 inch live steam engine.It must be nice to run something that actually pulls you around the track.
It's a bit embarrassing when his steam loving friends stick their heads over the fence to see how mine is comming along.I tell them I have to run electric so my trams can run in a prototypical manner.[8D
Then again,a lot of them run O guage.
Troy

[Anonymous]

Ian, were you wearing a Blues jersey at the time?

I'm about to experience all of this. My total G scale capital exytends to a couple of Garden Railways Magazines (although I own the land - significant inventment there!) Locally in a theme park there is an outdoor modelrailway club which I will check out. Generally, people on the North Coast ARE friendly and inviting, and apart from the local junior soccer club we have had no probs assimmilating.

I have found the few people into G scale that I have quizzed to be quite helpful, but people usually are when talking about their own stuff.

As per participation, I have seen a few layouts with some age to them, so it's not necessarily a new concept. I reckon there would be a number of people doing it, but t is still dwarfed by HO. Last year there was a model train show at Taree, and about 10% had G scale exhibits.

I have heard that it's the fastest growing secor of the model train market. Better get somemore coffee on!

[grandpopswalt]

Hey Guys,

If you don't like the large, well established clubs, start your own. A "club" can be 2 or 3 lone wolves who DO have the same attidtude toward the hobby and find that they do get along.

Get together occasionally to give one another a hand and exchange ideas. But above all, agree that the only rule you'll have is that there are no rules. And your club members don't have to be in the same town. I've contacted a forum member, visited his layout and now we're "club" members. We keep in touch via e-mail and occasional visits when we're in town. And this is much better than sitting around once a month talking about by-laws and whose newest engine cost more.

Walt

[Anonymous]

Walt-- this is the sort of 'club' that my Dad and I have.
We visit each other a couple of times a year and exchange ideas.He has about one and a half kilometers of track and more trains than I can think of.
Guess how many times he has let me have control of them.
Once !
Keeps me keen I suppose[:)]
Troy

[grandpopswalt]

Troy,

Is that 1 1/2 scale KM of track or actually 1 1/2 KM of track? If it's the latter, that must be a phenomenal sight. What gauge or scale is it?

Walt

[Marty Cozad]

I should probably keep my mouth closed on this one but,,here goes.

Clubs are like church. Some very small churches are very close, yet lack the resources to do much.
A meg church may lack closeness but has the funding to send out and support their own missionaries.
Learning to find where you (anyone) fit in is your personal job.
If I based my choices on peoples response I would NOT be here on the forums. The clubs I belong to is mainly to see how and when can i help. I'm labeled as an active part time member simple cause I have more of a world view than a "us" in the club view.
After 3 years in one club there are still folks who i have not said much to and others we meet and visit as said in above post.
We as people should not worry about what our club can do for us, but rather what we can do for our club! ( where have I heard that before?)
My one and ONLY reason for ever coming out of the closet and going public that I am a ,,,,,,a,,,,,,,Garden RRer is simply to find someone else close by to play trains with.
And look now, we have many folks coming by to play trains. And yes we have to be organized to make it all come together and grow.
Thank you and good night.
Please don't stone me yet.

[Anonymous]

I personally have no experience with a club. There is one in my area that has friendly people. I even took the time to meet one of them( Timmy, on MLS) Their club seems very interested in promoting the hobby and new members. However I find my personal time dictated by family schedules of kids activities and such as well as work. I feel I would end up being a member in name only being unable to attend meetings and run layouts at train shows. Therfore I stick with you all and call this my club as well as MLS.

Or are we really just here to fill ther gap of Garden Railroads and the Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette and others being bimonthly[?]

[Marty Cozad]

Matt
I'm also in a "mixed Scale club" od which we host a pinic once a year. I belong mainly to keep up on whats going on in other scales. The people in clubs knows that you and others are busy. Thats also why 20% do all the work. they have the time or energy. Its ok to support a club to show that you stand behind them. I've sent door prizes before to one young club of whom I knew the founder. Some one had to encourage him doing the first year or so. Now they have 20 some members and I get the newsletter. I have never meet him or them .

[Marty Cozad]

Heres another thought
Picture this.
Your a beginner, one circle of track and a starter set. You don't even know if its DC or AC power.
Go to a club, the first WRONG question they ask is, How big of a RR do you have? How much track.?
(comparing===wrong)
Now I go to the same club, first time , first thing they ask, How big is your RR? how much track? I feel as awkard as the beginer because i don't want to say or stand out in the crowd.

WHOOO cares how much, Why not ask, How can we help you? What is your favorite part about GRRing? Yes how long have you been in it is good, helps to know what level to work with them on.

We as a culture, we always compare, you never hear some guy at the bar braging about his wife is bigger than your wife??

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Marty Cozad
[We as a culture, we always compare, you never hear some guy at the bar braging about his wife is bigger than your wife??

Yea, and mine tears the door stops off when walking through a doorway! [
b]JUST KIDDING[/b]