Lionel G-Scale Wood Single Stall Engine House 8-82105

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Lionel G-Scale Wood Single Stall Engine House 8-82105
Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Friday, May 12, 2017 7:33 PM

Who has a Lionel G-Scale Wood Single Stall Engine House 8-82105?  Any chance I can park a Bachmann Shay in there? How big is the door opening? Will it fit through the door?

Thanks,

Marty

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Sunday, May 14, 2017 10:45 PM

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/mkbradley_photos/_57_zpswlcsmelq.jpg

Here is a picture of the engine house I am talking about.

 

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Posted by ttrigg on Monday, May 15, 2017 11:28 AM

I do not have this item, nor have I seen one. I have attempted to locate scale drawings with no luck what-so-ever. Based upon Linoel garden scale trains generally have a size ratio of 1:32, and Bachmann runs aroud 1:20.9, I'm going to speculate the answer to your question is no, it will not fit without some serious modifications.

If anyone else has info contrary to my speculation, please post.

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Posted by Greg Elmassian on Monday, May 15, 2017 1:17 PM

I agree with Tom. So in the picture, you see a locomotive, that is the Lionel Atlantic, not a huge locomotive, your 1:20.3 will be significantly taller. Looking at the picture there MIGHT be enough vertical clearance for a loco to fit,

BUT

The most common clearance problems running 1:20.3 on 1:29 or in this case 1:32 "environments" is the width... looking at the relative width of the door opening, I'm pretty sure you would have issues... besides the fact it would just look out of scale.

 

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Posted by ttrigg on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 10:34 PM

Considering all the negativity I've started I must say that I like the looks of this shed. I think it would do well as a work shed for a H-L-W (Heartland Locomotive works) Goose or Birney (trolly), maybe even a rail truck. From looking at the photo I can see that the doors are slightly wider than the rail ties. Since H-L-W equipment is narrower than the ties it should work well. The Birney and Goose might be a bit tall but a well constructed 'tall concrete foundation' would fix that problem. The Birney and Goose have fairly wide flat tops that might impact the upper door curvature. After researching your question I'm thinking about getting one for my rail trucks. If I do get one it will need some serious ageing.

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 10:47 PM

It seems clear that this is not the right engine house for me and my 1:20 3T Shay. 

So, how about your suggestions for a kit for similar single stall engine house?  Wood (real or plastic simulated wood) construction with non-modern U.S. style.

Thanks,

Marty

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Posted by ttrigg on Wednesday, May 17, 2017 11:47 PM

Ozark Models has a nice 'sectional' engine shed. Plastic with a 'cinder block' look. My B-mann 3 truck shay clearly fits with ease. When I say sectional, I mean SECTIONAL! You select the parts and pieces to build your shed to fit your needs and desires. You can build a single shed, double or tripple shed or roundhouse. For a single shed you would need a pair of 'end sections' with doors, and a slection of side wall sections with or without windows and a section with people door and window. The only thing I did not like was the building was designed as a flat roof. I took a couple of non-window sections and carefully cut it into a triangle to fit a pitched roof line. They have two roof sections, flat roof (ribbed) and shingled roof, each the length of 3 wall sections. As I went for a 5 section side wall it took some pain in the tail-feathers fidgeting to get a clean looking roof line. I also 'hung' one half of their 'Cascade Summit Dispatch Office' ($20) on the side as office space for the shed.

Look here for the shed components.

http://www.coloradomodel.com/babmain11.htm#BAB

and here for the front door to the website.

http://www.coloradomodel.com/bldgg.htm

As far as cost goes, you should be able to build a shed for just over half the price of the Lionel shed. 

Construction hint: Since all their parts are covered in mold release agent you will need to take over the kitchen sink for half an hour. Wash with warn water and liquid dish soap and rinse well with running warm water. Other wise paint and glue will NOT stick.

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Posted by Greg Elmassian on Thursday, May 18, 2017 5:49 PM

Tom, you have not generated any negativity, you (and I) have answered the question "will this work" to the best of our ability. If he bought the shed and the loco did not fit it would not be good.

I agree, height can be fixed, but accomodating more width would really require radical surgery that would not be worth the time.

 

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Posted by ttrigg on Friday, May 19, 2017 9:14 AM

Greg: When I used the word "negative" I had in mind that this is the first time I can remember saying "NO". I always try to suggest other ways to modify things to give a possible solution. 

Marty: Having nothing better to do in my hospital room I've spent nearly 40 hours searching for an answer to your question about other ideas. (Shattered lower left leg in an accident on my Segway. Segway is fine and I should go home on Monday.) Your requirements, wood, single stall, non modern US style, make for a nearly impossible search. Mostly due to the length of a B-mann 3 truck shay. There are a number of ready to use pre-builts that are designed for something on the line of an 0-4-0 to 2-6-4. Pola has a German design (the Shonenburg) which would require 2 expansion units, but this fails on multiple levels, brick, european design, 2 stalls. 

If you truly want a wood structure I would suggest stopping by a doll house shop. Look for the availabity of supplies in the '1/2 inch' section, that's 1:24 in our terms. I've acquired 'lap siding', people doors and oversized windows for some of my own designs. Unless you have wood working skills you might want to stay with retangular bay doors rather that the round tops. The only other option I could suggest would be to go to a scale train show. Every show I've been to has atleast one vendor of wooden structures. They tend to do special orders so you can specify the length you need. A few weeks later UPS or FedEx will drop a box at your house. You can select (from most of them) kit form, assembled ready to paint, or prepainted ready to use. The thing I like most about these guys is most can do milled signage for the yard name etc.

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Posted by emdmike on Sunday, May 21, 2017 11:01 AM

I agree with Tom, to get the desired "logging railroad" look with an engine shed of that length, building it with wood is the only way forward.  Construction style of that period would be similar to farm barns.  A logging railroad made do with what they could make on site in thier sawmill.  Rough cut main timbers and simple siding.  Remember to put ventelation at the top for whatever end you park the Shay's smokestack under.   If its going outdoors, remember to use water proof glue, I prefer Titebond myself, and waterproof the whole thing with something as well.    Mike

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Posted by ttrigg on Wednesday, May 24, 2017 12:16 PM

The subject of logging company engine sheds has gotten me interested. After six days of surfing the web for photos, sketches and site plans I've come to the conclusion there is no such thing as a standard shed plan. In the North-East where logging operations seemed to be bigger as they supported the shipbuilding companies the engine sheds seemed to be mostly wood structures with lap siding. (I'm guessing a snow thing.) Most were 2 or 3 stalls wide. Across the south it seems as if a 'pole shed' was rather common with some form of office/parts/tool storage structure. Just a roof, no walls, and the 'structures' were mostly retired standard gauge box cars. In the Southwest tended to be vertical planking with air gaps between the planks. Office and storage space seems to have been simple wooden sheds attached to the engine shed. Board and batten siding seemed to prevail in Colorado and the west coast.

Smoke ventilation seemed to run the entire gamut from, clearstory, short chimneys, vented skylights, to eave vents above the front and back engine doors.

As Mike said the shed type depended upon what the logging operation had on site and how long they intended to work that area. The only thing that seemed to be common to all logging operations was a turning device in or near the yards. Most common was a simple loop so the engine was pointed uphill for the next day's run. A smattering of turning wye's were represented and when space was at a premium in tight valley's, or multi stall sheds you can find a turntable.

I think I have found next years rainy season project.

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 9:23 PM

Ted sent me this photo.  It looks a lot bigger in this picture taken at the Fern Creek and Western.

... and I messaged Trevor and he verified that the Bachmann 3-Truck Shay will fit. So I ordered one and it is on the way!

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Posted by Greg Elmassian on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 12:23 PM

It sure is bigger! That's a Bachmann ~1:22 loco... nothing like a picture taken at the right angle.

I'll bet your 1:20.3 loco will look even better, as that building definitely is not 1:32 scale like the rest of their "g" stuff.

 

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Sunday, June 04, 2017 9:33 AM

I do not have my kit yet, but a friend has bought one and reports the door is 7 1/8 inch wide and 10 inches tall and the unit is 39 inches long.

 

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Posted by ttrigg on Sunday, June 04, 2017 3:33 PM

If thoise dimentions are correct, and I have no reason to doubt, then you have a great find. To copy Greg a photo from the wrong angle can be deceptive.

Congrats on the find. I would ask that you post a pic or two when you can. I would love to see one with the smoke stack just at the doors taken from track level.

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Monday, June 05, 2017 8:50 PM

The kit has arrived and I can verify that the opening is 7" x 10" which will work just fine. The kit box says that the overall dimensions are 40.5"(L) x 10.5" (W) x 13.25" (H) and that will also be fine.

This will be my first wooden outdoor structure build.  There are about 50 wood parts + about 1000 wood shingles.  Now, I need your recommendations.

1) What is the best outdoor all weather glue to use?

2) I could stain the siding. Stain + sealer?  What products and brands? I will probably go to Lowes or Home Depot.  I am in California, so some products may not be available. 

3)  I will paint the trim. I could also paint the siding.  What do you recommend for to outdoor use? A favorite primer +  best UV resistant paint?  or something else? Recommendations?

And yes, I will post pictures when completed!

Thanks,

Marty 

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Posted by ttrigg on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 1:08 AM

First I would caution about using the word 'best' around here. There have been more than a few 'heated discussions'. 

1. There are several water proof / weather proof glues out there. My two favorites are Tightbond 2 and Gorilla wood glue. TB2 is rather quick and easy to use. Gorilla will hold for much longer than any other glue, DISADVANTAGE: while setting up it will foam out the edges and that foam is a bear to clean up after setting up.

2. Sealing and preserving the shed.

Since your microclimate is not so different than mine I would first advise you to coat the inside half way up the wall with a copper base presevitive. It will make the wood GREEN so do not get any on the outside of the structure. It will take 4~5 days for the preservitive to cure, other wise stains, paints, glues and whatever will NOT adheare. Using the copper base preservitive will add at least a dozen years to the life time of this project. The biggest problem of wood and dirt is dry rot and wood eating bugs, and we have more than our fair share here in CA. The copper based preservitive will keep the bugs away for years.

Sealer? I'm going to say no. You want what ever coating you use to soak into the wood. As top coats soak into the wood they will raise the grain for some nice texture. Stains, too much too fast will not be pleasing. If your stain uses a thinner, get some. Start with 2 part thinner 1 part stain and wait at least a day between coats. Use extra coats along the bottom sill and 6~10 scale inches up each corner. Use a toothpick to put some extra stain under the eves. Varying the color thickness of your stain will make it look more life like. A good top coat readily available here in Calif, wooden deck finish. Add a bit of thiner to allow the deck finish to seep into the wood and leave a textured surface. I use the Thompson brand (both on layout buildings and the patio), it seems to last about 5~6 years before needing a new coat.

3. Paint. Any outdoor house paint will do fine. Use the cheapest you can find. The good expensive paints are very thick will leave a flat surface destroying any texture you had. The cheap stuff will  be thin and soak in and give the color and texture you will be looking for. All paints will need recoating after a few years anyway. If your wife uses a food vacuum sealer and it has the "jar/can" option use it to seal your paint can for the next few years.

Reccomendations: Think about what and where you are modeling as you select your color scheme. Larger prosperious logging companies will use more color than smaller struggeling outfits leave the wood bare.

Now for the inside. Use a bunch of painters tape to cover the outside of the building. Using the cheapest cans of spray paint cover the inside with a battleship grey, a good 100% coverage. After the grey dries, back off about 2~3 feet and give a light mist of  flat white 10~20% coverage. Use a sliver/chrome color for a 5~10% coverage. When the silver is dry use more painter tape to cover the inside walls from the window tops to the floor sill. Remain 2~3 feet and fine mist flat black until you have 80~90% coverage. You get the idea, add in some smoke and oil staining inside the shed.

The two smoke stacks: If your setting is New England area the stacks will most likely be copper. Check scenery suppliers for something to give a green copper patina. Southern to Mid West will be fabricated at the local blacksmith as wrought-iron, so you will be looking for dark grey with some iron-oxide streaking. Rockies to Pacific will probably be a mix of all the above plus tin or aluminum. For these you will be looking for dull silver to shiney aluminum color.

Add in some soot staining down the outside of all the above and some staining around the edges of the top cover.

Guess I need to leave room for someone else to comment.

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Posted by ttrigg on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 1:34 AM

Before anyone questions the blacksmith comment. How are the logs brought to trackside for loading? Horses of course, so you find blacksmiths on staff. A nice blacksmith shop alongside the egine shed would be nice for the horses and tools and spare parts for the engines.

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Posted by ttrigg on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 10:03 AM

Additional comments:

Paint brushes; stay with the small ones like we used on plastic car and plane model kits. Q-Tips work well for stains in and around corners and sills, toothpicks to put fine lines of stain under the window sills. toothpicks with the end chewed up to brush stains under the eves.

Stains; find the color you like then purchase three or four shades lighter. Looking at the color chart uner the flouresent lights of the store is very deceptive. A color that looks natural at a scale of 1:1 will look exceptionally dark at 1:20 etc. outside in sun light.

Paints: Looking at an enlarged copy of your second pic I can see the seams between the planks forming the walls. A $40  per gallon exterior paint will be so thick it will fill in these joints and they will disappear. The cheap stuff (1 part paint 1 part water) will not fill in those joints and give the color you want.

Disstressing the wood: Most wood will have knot holes and other non clear wood in the planks. Remember these logging companies will sell their good clear planks for a high price. They tend to use the poor grades of wood for their own structures. If you go with no paint natural wood look. Knot Holes; use a 1/32 or smaller drill bit and twist by finger to drill small holes in most of the planks. Take a small piece of redwood or walnut and use your elec sander to create a bunch of fine wood dust. Mix with Elmer's wood glue and fill these holes. When the mix dries these color spots will look natural especially when stained. For color veins in the plank, use a fine and sharp razor knife (X-Acto) to cut fine and shallow "V's" in some of the planks and carefully fill with more of the sawdust paste with a bit of deeper color stain (maybe a red color), use the X-Acto blade as a putty knife to smooth out the fill. A lite sanding with 500~1,000 grit paper may be needed. Some of the planks will have uneven edges that do not fit tight against the next plank. Use a sharp nife blade to carve away the edge of a plank about halfway through your panel. Use toothpick to put some dark grey or lite black paint into the bottom.

Signage: If your shed is near a main line passenger route you may want to add some signage. Google search some old fashion Car, beer or tobbaco signs. Print them on a color laser printer, ink jet will work but not last 1/3 the time of laser. Cut out the signs. Lay them face down on a smooth surface and sand the back side with 500 grit sandpaper to remove at least half the paper. Use Q-Tip to paint clear finish on the wall the same size as the sign, apply the sign and then cover with more clear finish. Also search for wall storage for tools where the tools hang on the wall. Repete as signs and apply to inside of the shop walls. or paint 'off white' rectangles then paint the larger tools on the wall using toothpick as brush.

Accessories: Since you are in CA where every 5th grader builds a model of a California Mission in the spring time. Stop by your local Michael's store. Most years they have a blacksmith's forge (1:18 scale, still usable) 1:24 hay bales, 150 pound grain sacks, water wells with windlass and bucket 1:20, Several scales of wildlife, look in the 1:24 bins. (Animals; drill small hole in one foot, jam in a stiff wire (brass if you have some) to 'spike' the critter into the ground so it stays upright. You can also find a decent assortment of tools, shovels, sledge hammers and the like.

OK, now that I have extended your construction time by at least 150 hours I should probably shut my mouth.

Looking forward to seeing your finished product.

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 2:40 PM

Thanks for the advice.  I will "soak it all up".

What about the shingles?  There are literally a thousand of them and they are light colored wood.  They should be much darker.  The shakes on my actual (full size) roof are nearly black (or at least faded black - dark grey).

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Posted by ttrigg on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 7:46 PM

Shingles: 

1. The simplest method of staining them adds a week and half to 2 weeks to construction time. Pre-stain them, get 3~4 different dark color stains. Pour into glass jars then drop in a handful of shingles. Use a plastic fork to fish them out and place one at a time onto paper towels. Do not allow them to overlap as they will stick together. Advantage: Due to different soaking times per shingle and grain density you will end up with several shades of each color. Disadvantage: Stain is oil, oil will not allow glue to hold until they are dry. LONG drying time. 

2. If you have a small air brush just spray the stain on one side. Advantage; quick and easy, one side remains oil free and will glue up nicely. Disadvantage: some will warp with oil on just one side. You have just sprayed a fine mist of oil in the air and have a possible explosion hazard. Slight but possible.

3. Glue them 'raw' onto the roof, then stain. Allow a couple days for the glue to fully cure. Use small brush/Q-Tip/cotton balls to apply the different stains. Advantage: Shortens construction time. While 'paint brush' dries out from shingle to shingle you will have a wide variety of color shades. Disadvantage: 2 years from now you will see many shingles have shrunk or warped exposing the unstained part of the next shingle down. If you air brushed the stain as you covered the edges of the shingles some will reach under the top shingle to color the bottom one.

CAUTION: Do NOT put the stained Q-Tips/cotton balls in the trash. In confined space as the oil drys out it will generate small amounts of heat. If you have enough in confined space it will self combust. Before our first child was born (I'm granddad now) I built the baby furniture, cradle, chest of drawers, changing table and the like. We used old t-shirts & old wash cloths that had been designated as rags by HER to apply the stains. when we finished they went into a plastic bag and into the trash can. 3 days later as I came home from work I saw 'steam' escaping from the trash can. As I lifted the lid to investigate fresh air entered the can and the fire flash singed off my eyebrows. Since then I have always burned the rags after use.

Hope this helps, or did I just confuse things with too many options?

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Posted by ttrigg on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 6:41 AM

4. India Ink. Go to an Art Supply and pick up some inks. India Ink, black, dark brown, rustic red. Use small art brushes and wash the inks over the shingles, before or after installing. If you do not cover with a clear coat the inks will wash down and stain the building sides over time. As the ink washes out the shingles will pick up a natural patina. You will watch weathering by mother nature. Advantage: Water based inks will really pull out the grain of the wood. Noi nasty chemicals. Disadvantage: Will require touch ups more often at first but as time goes on mother nature will do the work for you.

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Posted by Greg Elmassian on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 3:12 PM
By the way, how tall is your shay's stack? I seem to remember that mine was pretty close to 10" from the railhead. Greg

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Sunday, June 11, 2017 9:24 AM

Checking with the actual end-wall part with the door opening, even the biggest flat top balloon stack included with the Shay clears the 10" height.

Greg Elmassian
By the way, how tall is your shay's stack? I seem to remember that mine was pretty close to 10" from the railhead. Greg
 

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Sunday, June 11, 2017 9:39 AM

1. How about Tightbond 3?  It is more weatherproof, but has a little longer drying time and I have a bottle handy? Or it Tightbond 2 superior?

2. Could not find the green preservative at Lowes or Ace Hardware. So, for better or worse I am going without it.

I have studied historical photos (most are black and white) of my era and region as well as the exsisting loco shed at theYosemite Mountan Sugar Pine Railroad in Fish Camp. A nearly common theme for engine houses and railroad buildings is that nearly everything is wood with sometimes white trim for windows and doors. Some of the over capitalzed ($'s) logging operations that quickly went bankrupt had fancy painted buildings. So, I'm going with wood stain + white window and door trim.

I have everything stained and painted, including a metalic finish for the vents.

Question about the Thompson top coat - do I apply it to each piece now or wait and do the whole structure when it is assembled?

Thanks for the advice ...

ttrigg

1. There are several water proof / weather proof glues out there. My two favorites are Tightbond 2 and Gorilla wood glue. TB2 is rather quick and easy to use. Gorilla will hold for much longer than any other glue, DISADVANTAGE: while setting up it will foam out the edges and that foam is a bear to clean up after setting up.

2. Sealing and preserving the shed.

Since your microclimate is not so different than mine I would first advise you to coat the inside half way up the wall with a copper base presevitive. It will make the wood GREEN so do not get any on the outside of the structure. It will take 4~5 days for the preservitive to cure, other wise stains, paints, glues and whatever will NOT adheare. Using the copper base preservitive will add at least a dozen years to the life time of this project. The biggest problem of wood and dirt is dry rot and wood eating bugs, and we have more than our fair share here in CA. The copper based preservitive will keep the bugs away for years.

 A good top coat readily available here in Calif, wooden deck finish. Add a bit of thiner to allow the deck finish to seep into the wood and leave a textured surface. I use the Thompson brand (both on layout buildings and the patio), it seems to last about 5~6 years before needing a new coat.

Reccomendations: Think about what and where you are modeling as you select your color scheme. Larger prosperious logging companies will use more color than smaller struggeling outfits leave the wood bare.

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Sunday, June 11, 2017 9:50 AM

Searching online at the Lowes website, I was able to find 1-gallon "Copper-Green" in about 10 seconds.  Advantage internet over wandering the big box stores.  Can I put it still put it over stain?

Oakhurst Railroad Engineer

2. Could not find the green preservative at Lowes or Ace Hardware. So, for better or worse I am going without it. 

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Posted by ttrigg on Sunday, June 11, 2017 3:24 PM

If you put copper based preservative over strain: 1. The dry stain will block some penetration of the preservative. 2. The walls will be green for 3~5 years until the sun turns it to 'barn wood grey'. That is why I said to put it on the inside only.

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Posted by ttrigg on Monday, June 12, 2017 8:15 AM

Oakhurst Railroad Engineer

 I was able to find 1-gallon "Copper-Green" in about 10 seconds.  

Look some more. Smaller container. You will need abot two and one half ounces. A gallon is more than you will need in this hobby over the next five life times.

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Posted by ttrigg on Monday, June 12, 2017 8:55 AM

Oakhurst Railroad Engineer

I have everything stained and painted, including a metalic finish for the vents.

Question about the Thompson top coat - do I apply it to each piece now or wait and do the whole structure when it is assembled?

I hope I have read this wrong. If you glue a painted surface to another painted surface you are just glueing paint to paint, not wood to wood. When the paint seperates from the wood, and it will, the building will fall apart. Stains have oils, oils prevent any glue from properly bonding.

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Posted by Oakhurst Railroad Engineer on Monday, June 12, 2017 1:42 PM

I don't have any important glue joints with painted surfaces, but I do have a lot of glue joints between stained surfaces.  Those aren't going to hold?  I assumed that once I applied sealer to the parts that the glue joints would not be very effective, but I was assuming the stained surface glue joints would be OK ...

ttrigg
 
Oakhurst Railroad Engineer

I have everything stained and painted, including a metalic finish for the vents.

Question about the Thompson top coat - do I apply it to each piece now or wait and do the whole structure when it is assembled?

 

 

I hope I have read this wrong. If you glue a painted surface to another painted surface you are just glueing paint to paint, not wood to wood. When the paint seperates from the wood, and it will, the building will fall apart. Stains have oils, oils prevent any glue from properly bonding.

 

www.oakhurstrailroad.com

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