Hi Friends! I was recently bit by the garden railroading bug. After asking a question in the Garden Railroading Forum about battery power versus powerpacks, I purchased my first G-scale train set through the Lionel Store — and was thoroughly disappointed! I received a battery-operated locomotive, tender, coal car (with plastic blocks), caboose, cheap plastic tracks, and a remote control unit. The set was $99. I suspect I purchased a G-scale TOY train rather than a MODEL train. I returned the train set for a refund. Can anyone offer a little advice about purchasing G-scale MODEL trains that are not intended as TOYS? When ordering G-scale MODEL trains, what does one look for to differentiate between MODEL trains and TOY trains? It seems some suppliers, Lionel included, deliberately mislead buyers new to garden railroading just to make a quick sale. Thanks for your help!
G-man
You are correct, there is a broad range of quality in the G-scale world. Look to companies like Accucraft for the other end of the range from what you found in your Lionel kit.
Have you picked up a copy or two of Garden Railways? Reading some of the articles there will lead you to understand what some of the more serious modellers are using. Also, I'd strongly suggest visiting one of the bigger train shows to be able to see some of the products first hand. The National convention in Santa Clara this year would be ideal!
Yes, but they do indeed cost more. Just resign yourself to the fact that quality costs money.
Are you looking at Steam or Diesel? Modern or older? Narrow gauge or standard gauge?
Right now I would select from Bachmann, USA Trains, Piko, unless you go european prototypes, then add in LGB.
Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
Must agree with Gregg, you had a good toy set, appropriate for running by a 6 year old team member. For quality G scale that $99 will get you one car, a couple scale people, a cheezeburger and cup of coffee. A good engine will run in the $400 to $600 range, for top quality be prepared to drop a grand. You can cut the prices by about a third by going to a selling train show.
Tom Trigg
Greg Elmassian ... unless you go european prototypes, then add in LGB.
... unless you go european prototypes, then add in LGB.
LGB makes a good amount of US prototype stuff. The majority of it is narrow gauge, but there's a fair variety of 1:29 standard gauge, too. They're the "gold standard" for durability in this hobby, so your chances of getting a dud loco from them is fairly slim. (There are some, mind you, as QC took a hit during the few years they migrated production to the far east.) LGB brought many people into this hobby, myself included. I still have our first loco from 40 years ago! Runs like a champ!
Really, any of the brands Greg listed above will be pretty reliable for you. (Add Aristo-Craft to that list, too, since they're heavily traded on the 2nd-hand market.) If there's a specific locomotive that catches your eye, feel free to ask here what others' experiences are with it. Certain locos from certain manufacturers have known weaknesses. Some are easily corrected, others a bit more difficult.
Welcome aboard!
Later,
K
I thought of Aristo, but for a beginner, determining the age of the Aristo stuff, and also evaluating driveline wear, etc. is not something I would want to be responsible for.
Indeed there is a good used market, but repair/replacement parts would also be an issue for a beginner.
Repair/replacement will always present some degree of challenge to newcomer and experienced modeler alike. Bachmann has multiple generations of some of their locos which would need to be identified to know whether one might have a bad gear or whatnot. They're still very much in business, but spare parts are incredibly hit-or-miss with them. (We're eternally greatful for Northwest Short Line's replacement gears.)
That's why I suggest a beginner ask here or on other forums about specific locomotives they may be interested in purchasing. Bachmann, USA, Aristo, Accucraft, even LGB... they've all had locomotives with "issues." New or used, there are things to look out for. The 2nd-hand market offers the buyer very attractive pricing in what is often viewed as a very expensive hobby. Embrace the variety, but ask questions before you spend your money to make sure you're getting a good deal and good locomotive.
Repair and replacement is part of the hobby, but buying new means you have a warranty. Can't buy new from Aristo, nor get many parts.
You may not think highly of Bachmann Kevin, but they ARE in business and they DO have spare parts.
Bach does have some spare parts, but they by seeming design do not have a lot.
Older engines, no parts, but you could buy replacement chassis for like 4-6-0's at least at one point.
Burn up the Ames Super Socket in your K-27, and you're SOL.
Need a pilot truck for an older 4-6-0, you might be SOL there, too.
In Half Zero Bach stuff, the older 8 drivered locos, plastic couplers go bad between drivers..but wait! You can buy a new modify-to-fit chassis from Bach for $85, so yes, there are parts.
Delton is gone, Aristo is gone, including Aristo Classic (old Delton), new Bach stuff is so far out of my price range any more, even if I had a frontal lobotomy and considered buying new, cost would prevent that.
All of my Bach larger rod engines have BBT drives in them.
But that even costs more money.
Gee, Kevin, you don't like Bachmann?
TOC
Curmudgeon Gee, Kevin, you don't like Bachmann?
Apparently not, though that's certainly news to me. I should need to thin my roster a bit if that were the case. (Ain't no one gettin' my C-19!)
All kidding aside, this thread reads as to suggest our trains are constantly in need of repair. 'tis not so. For the most part, our locomotives are reliable out of the box. In some cases, there is a known weakness that--once fixed--will provide reliable service from that point forward. In many of those cases, the manufacturer addressed that particular weakness in subsequent production runs of the locomotive. That's where the research comes in. Greg worries that this may be a daunting task for the beginner. I'd suggest there is ample information on the web (including Greg's own site) which outlines many things to keep in mind when looking to buy a locomotive. Again, pick a locomotive that strikes your fancy, Google it, ask here about it--just do your homework. There are thousands of us out here, and we all have experience with myriad locomotives. A beginner is not going to find a locomotive about which no one else has any kind of opinion.
The person who brought up repair parts, used locos and problems with Bachmann parts is you Kevin...
I stand by my recommendation of not recommending Aristo for beginners.
I stand by my recommendation of including Bachmann for beginners.
I do not agree with you about a problem with Bachmann for parts, they are no more trouble than any other company.
For a while I began to wonder what I had been doing wrong (or right) after rereading this thread a few times. I have never, in over 20 years, had the need to acquire 'repair parts' for any of my Garden trains. I have purchased 'replacement parts' for seveal of my trains. A different style head lamp, a different shaped smoke stack, heavier wheel sets, a 'moonroof' for a cab, and of course the experimentation with some short lived (not so ) fun with connector types, knuckle, hook & loop, link and pin, etc. Even the HO stuff is still in running order and approaching 50 years of service. Except for one engine that is still in parts from when it took the express trip from the second floor to the first floor of our appartment. N and Z scales were a totally different story.
Greg Elmassian The person who brought up repair parts, used locos and problems with Bachmann parts is you Kevin...
I mentioned Bachmann as a parallel example to Aristo with respect to needing to determine which version of a locomotive a user may be buying. Both manufacturers have produced multiple "generations" of the same locomotive, with changes made to each subsequent generation to correct a problem from the previous. (Bachmann's venerable 4-6-0 is up to "generation 6" now.) "Which Bachmann Shay is that" is every bit a question that needs to be asked as "Which Aristo pacific" when it comes to determining long-term reliability. A casual search on the internet for any specific locomotive will often turn up volumes of information the buyer can use to make their decision.
I will respectfully disagree. I see no problem with recommending Aristo to the beginner. They made a good product and many are still providing very reliable service for their owners. Absolutely, the buyer needs to be told Aristo is out of business, so even if the locomotive is "new in box," they know they're on their own for repairs. That's just full disclosure and being a responsible seller. If a factory warranty is important for the buyer,they can make that determination themselves whether to buy a model.
I heartily agree with that. I'm unsure where you get the impression I would not do so. One look at my locomotive roster would clear up any misconception relative to my impression of Bachmann's locomotives.
To be clear, there are no major manufacturers (current or recently shuttered) whose products I would have any hesitation to recommend to the beginner. There are specific models which I would recommend doing some research on first to make sure they will be reliable long term. They are not restricted to any one manufacturer.
They're not (especially when compared to Aristo and other defunct companies), but the reality is that they do not regularly stock comprehensive supplies of spare parts as LGB and Piko do. Once Bachmann is out of a part for a given loco, they cannot help you. They have run out of variuos parts for various locomotives, so there will be locomotives they cannot help you fix. That is not to be misconstrued as an indictment against Bachmann. It's just their business model.
Truth is, it doesn't matter that Aristo is out of business, or Bachmann may not have the gear you need to fix your locomotive. These are no longer insurmountable obsticles.
"Can't find it? Print it!"
We're seeing 3D printing become more and more of a powerful force in the hobby. Beyond those modelers who are 3D printing entire locomotives, we're seeing a growing number of modelers printing replacement parts--gears, handrail stanchions, headlights, etc.--to keep their existing commercial locomotives on the road. Virtual 3D modeling is fast becoming as valuable a skill to have as traditional modeling.
Bottom line, concern over the availability of spare parts is no reason to shy away from purchasing a model. If something does go wrong, you'll be able to fix it one way or the other; whether it be parts from the manufacturer, spare parts scavenged off of a 2nd-hand basket case locomotive, or parts generated on a 3D printer.
I'd NEVER recommend to a beginner anything where they have to go to the effort to buy used parts, pull apart a loco or have an expensive 3d printed part made.
Kevin, you and I have been in the hobby a while, but you need to put yourself in the shoes of a newcomer who can get so discouraged they quit early.
We should recommend easy paths to "fun" that have a very high chance of success.
If I just thought about myself, and my personal needs and wants, I would not be helpful to others.
Greg Elmassian I'd NEVER recommend to a beginner anything where they have to go to the effort to buy used parts, pull apart a loco or have an expensive 3d printed part made.
I would agree with that; the difference is that I see no reason to expect to have to do that with the vast majority of locomotives on the market today, thus my willingness to continue to recommend time-tested locomotives made by now-defunct manufacturers.
Tom hit it right on the money; most folks will go their entire lives in this hobby not needing to make major repairs to a locomotive. I've been at this 40 years. I've not quite had Tom's luck of never having to, but the locos I've had to repair suffered from well-known weaknesses which have since been remedied by the manufacturers in subsequent production runs. (Except for my LGB Mogul. I stripped the gears on that one because I filled the entire boiler with lead shot. The thing pulled like a champ, though!)
Greg says I should make my recommendation based on "easy paths to 'fun' that have a very high chance of success." As I see it, success is born from reliability. Nothing frustrates me more than a locomotive that doesn't run right, so my recommendations come from the merits of each individual locomotive. If a locomotive has a proven track record of reliable operation, it gets my vote. If it doesn't, I'll say "proceed with caution." I put much more emphasis on a locomotive having a history of not needing repairs in the first place than how easy it is to fix the locomotive if it breaks. The operational status of a manufacturer has no bearing on how reliable a locomotive is, thus it doesn't factor into my opinion.
Greg's welcome to his own criteria for his recommendations, and I respect his emphasis on manufacturer support. From my perspective, I think that's a lesser concern. But that's why folks ask questions on forums--to get a variety of perspectives. They can then make their own decisions based on what is important to them.
I myself run nothing but Kalamazoo Toy Trains(excellent bashing fodder). They look good on my tight curves, are made in the USA and parts easily found on ebay or thru Hartland Locomotive Works, who ended up with the Kalamazoo molds. They are also very affordable. B-man is nice but fragile, parts are a huge ? mark. For my live steam side I have a pair of Accucraft Rubies, but one has a USA build coal fired boiler. Other has its Chinese built gas fired one. Been very pleased with both engines. The old Kalamazoo's just keep running, both of my 4-4-0s have new Hartland axle gears and onboard battery power. I prefer robust drive over detailing for outdoor use and being handled from the shelf to the track. LGB also held in high reguard for this ruggedness, but the 4-4-0's handle R1 curves better than LGB's mogul does. All comes down to what your wallet can handle cost wise. I have seen some really cheapo battery toys turned into really nice scale models without spending huge sums of cash. Some in large scale enjoy taking what is no more than a toy to others, and transforming it into a beautiful model that leaves you floored when you find out what it started out as. And they do this with very little money spent! It really is a scale for every income! Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Oh fer christs sakes, I think the only thing done here was to scare G-man right into HO.
G-man IF you are still reading this BUY THIS:
https://www.wholesaletrains.com/Detail.asp?ID=200930915
From a decent vendor, decent LGB starter set, at a decent price, you get a great high quality little engine, a couple high quality cars, quality brass track to start with and an excellent powerpack that will power up to a 10 foot by 20 foot loop, which I know from personal experience.
$300ish bucks is the average for a starter set, even from Bachmann, I WOULD recommend the Bachmann sets EXCEPT that you get there lousy tin track. ANY RECENT Bachmann Big Hauler 4-6-0 is going to come with an upgraded drivetrain, but buying the latest most recent 4-6-0 ANNIE will get you there latest BARRY BIG TRAIN influenced drivetrain which is the best version they have ever done.
BUT to start, get the LGB set, its a complete solid package that will get you on the road without any fuss or hollar, and buy extra brass track as time or money allow.
I DON'T recommend newbies to buy Aristo. Aristo went out of business and in doing so took away their repair and parts services, and every year since replacement parts are getting harder and harder to find. If you do buy one chances are its going to used, probably heavily, and either broken or about to break. In a few years every heavily used Aristo loco will become a shelf queen, its just eventually going to happen without replacement parts. Anything New In Box Aristo also has zero warranty now, something to consider given prices being asked. I would just recommend starting with something where you can get set up and running with the least amount of trouble, hence my LGB starter set recommend.
Have fun with your trains
Greg were you recommending this set? (link didnt work for me)
If so YES this is also a good starter set, a little pricier than the LGB but still a good set, great engine, good quality cars good quality brass track.
No comment on the powerpack as I never used one so I dont know if its a 1 Amp or 1/2 Amp pack, Bachmann packs are only 1/2 Amp and are not great for large scale. The LGB set I recommend has a 1 Amp pack, which is very good for a decent starter layout.
As a newbie myself I have a suggestion: find a local garden railway club and get to know the people and layouts. That was my introduction to the hobby. I was able to obtain low cost used equipment from or through the members and they helped me understand the major areas you need to know. Within a few weeks I had an 0-4-0 switcher with tender that I converted to battery and radio control, the beginnings of a track collection and some rolling stock. A year later I have three locos with battery/radio, about 300 feet of track and a bunch of rolling stock. I have some passenger cars I got for $5 each through the club and some I paid $20 for on ebay. I got a Bachmann anniversary 4-6-0 on ebay for $61 and it is beautiful. You can get started with real model trains on a small budget. Oh, and I am 76 years young and still learning.
Whether or not the track is of USA prototype should be the least of ones worries if building a garden railway. Durablity in the sun is. None of the other brands I have used outdoors, USA, Aristo, REA and once piece of Kalamazoo have held up as well as LGB has over the years. We have both extremes of temps, very hot and humid right now, and bone chilling cold with wind chills 20-40 below zero in the winter. The USA engines are nice if a bit fragile. Just depends on what prototype you want, how close you want to stay to prototype or if you just enjoy a train in the garden. Post up some pics once you get started. And I have put boat loads of hours on LGB engines and the only parts I was replacing were the track skates. Those are now redundant as I have switched to battery power in every locomotive. AND they still keep running, no other parts, not even light bulbs. If LGB doesn't have it, Massoth does and they were the ones making the electrical gear other than the Buhler motors, for years. With brands falling fast, just annouced that Crest is done at the end of this month, we must just be thankfull for what we have and do the best we can. Mike
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