Moved to a new area and trying to build a new layout ,on the ground is the standard but I have ground squirrels , rattle snakes , and a host of nasty things , ground is not completely level ,but I have built many smaller scale layouts and this would be built cookie cutter ..... my main concern is I getting older and the old bod ain't what it use to be ......so what do you think I am open for any help ...Thanks Don
My first questions were going to be, how old are you and how are your knees? You've answered both...go elevated, do it now while your still spry enough to build it.
There is a thread on MLS about a raised layout in Oregon that I consider the best outdoor elevated layout I have seen. Its called the Port Orford Coast RR, unfortunatly MLS is FUBAR at the moment so your best bet is to try searching by the RR name, its builder is Richard Smith (no relation)
Here is also a good one, about half way down:
http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/18640/elevated-benchwork/view/post_id/203852
Have fun with your trains
Don
My first "empire" went on the ground around the Koi pond in 1997. Actually both went in at the same time on orders from SWMBO. Now that I have been fully retired for 2 years I have started building a new above ground level layout. The knees can no longer take the up & down needed for ground level work. I have seen several elevated bench work outdoor layouts that look excellent, with one personal drawback. There is no depth of view of this type layout. I have always enjoyed driving a train into a "hiding place" and have a different train pull out from the blind. A trick I learned in HO, N and Z scales. The eyes and fingers no longer work enough to fully enjoy the smaller scales.
I have been working, very slowly, on and elevated area layout for about a year and a half. Subtract time from a broken hip last summer while riding my Segway. I expect to get doctors approval to restart next month.
I am building a "J" shape with cinder blocks about 3 ft tall and 4~6 ft wide. Total one way run will be about 80 ft. There will be a mountain with a tunnel to hide one train at a time. Once that is accomplished an extension will be added (elevated benchwork) so that a train can go away and not return for some time. So I would say, if you can get by with little to no "scenery" other than track side then elevated benchwork is the way to go. You can always add an elevated "flower bed" for a fully sceniced area.
Let us know what you decide to do, and above all, ENJOY IT!
Tom Trigg
Quick footnote: SWMBO (pronounced swim-bow) is from my late wife's favorite British TV show, Rumpold of the Bailey. She Who Must Be Obeyed, when referring to his wife.
Hi I would go for a raised layout, If you let us know how you intend building I/E all wood or stone pillows and wood for laying track on ect? Do make sure all wood is treated against the elements also if you are going all wood pillows need to be treated for wood rot when in the ground. Hope this helps
Age is only a state of mind, keep the mind active and enjoy life
I would echo two tone's comments on the wood. Pressure treated lumber is the way to go, granted it is three times the price but will last ten times longer. One minor draw back, ALL cuts in the lumber MUST be treated with a cooper based preservative easily found in Lowe's or Home Depot etc. One slice through a treated 4x4 and you will see about a one inch core that the preservative did not penetrate to. I use a "Workmate" workbench to clamp the timers into an upright position and liberally spread a thick coat of preservative and let set for a day.
A word of warning: Cutting pressure treated wood requires extreme caution against breathing the fumes, and may even require a special blade.
It's been several years since I built my outdoor layout using pressure treated 4x4s to support a canopy , but I remember reading some cautionary statements about cutting it.
Here's some information by Popular Mechanics magazine on handling pressure treated wood:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/outdoor-projects/your-guide-to-working-with-pressure-treated-lumber-15655848
I know pressure treated wood is the first type of support that most of us think of. But, I just helped a friend install approximately 350 foot long loop of track in his back yard, with a passing siding and a wye to back the trains into his garage storage tracks. I used 16 and 20 foot diameter curve track sections, with #6 switches. For the shelf supports I chose 3 inch PVC pipe. No rot worries. Just dig a 18 to 20 inch deep hole, put a brick in the bottom, set in the PVC, and pour cement around the pipe filling the hole to within 3 or 4 inches of ground level. Be sure to check the plumb of the pipe with a level. This will allow you to plant flowers or ground cover around the post. I made the shelf wide enough for a two track main line, with a wider section for passing tracks. I used 1" Blonde plywood for the track shelf. This I purchased in 4 X 8 foot sheets and cut out the curves and the straights for the shelves, using the curve track as a template. This is much cheaper then buying 6" boards for the straight sections. I then covered the track shelf with black mineral surface rolled roofing material. Get this at a good roofing supply business. I cut the roofing material 2 inches wider, and rolled it over the sides to protect the wood. This also gives you the benefit of good looking ballast under your track. This roofing material is sold in 36 inch by 50 foot long rolls. I plan to paint the white PVC pipe a grass green color this spring.
Be sure to use the widest diameter curve track possible. A long train going around these curves sure looks good. I kept my grades to 1% or less, and the height ranges from 18 inches to 30 inches off the ground, as the topo of the lot was not level. After the pipes were all set in the ground, I used a builders level to mark the cut off point on each PVC pipe.
Have fun, and happy railroading,
Jim
PVC sounds like an excellent alternative post material. I know some (smaller diameters) is not UV resistant. I believe that the black PVC is more UV resistant (it actually goes under a different name which I forget). Thanks for sharing the thought. I will definately keep it in mind after I finish with the "elevated flower bed layout" and expand on benchwork.
If I were psychic and could have seen into a future full of roadbed washouts, the annual reballasting of the roadbed, the incursion of every small animal that could burrow being attracted to a garden railroad, bending down to cure this or that at the age of 63.....ummm, above ground sounds like heaven. I have a daily exercise in the winter in glancing out my back window and asking myself..should I start over? I should, but will I? Hmmm..I prefer thinking about it as an exercise in of itself rather than leveling, dirt embankments, setting posts , setting stringers ....all in clay soil akin to rock.
Yes, above ground is the best start in my view...
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Regular white PVC water pipe is NOT UV resistant. Here in Arizona the sun turns it black and extremely brittle in just a few years.
If I were rebuilding my layout, I'd use large diameter PVC piping that is used for drains and fill it with concrete and a rebar in the center.
Electrical gray PVC...
UV is an issue for all plastic products. Fortunately, there are additives that are added to plastics to make the material UV resistance. Listed Schedule 40 and 80 PVC conduit utilizes these additives and are UV resistant. The sunlight resistance test is found in UL Standard UL651. Listed product will have an indefinite life period. Listed Schedule 40 and 80 Conduit have been used in Florida for years including on rooftops. It is preferred along the coast because it is corrosion resistant.
Well I have received lots of good info and ideals ,well I have a fresh air and water budget , the Wife and I now manage a Church Camp ...so there's lots of building materials here and some old bed frames and other things ...will use the plan for tomorrow phrase from Tom to plan this and invoke the KISS plan ( keep it simple stupid ) in building and for those who asked I will take lots of pics and some vid along the way . so thank you everyone for the help Don
If I may add one more thought to this thread. I am building an above ground layout using all PVC materials. The benchwork is 1x4 PVC lumber (sold in 18' lengths) supported by 1-1/2" PVC pipe anchored in concrete. In the areas where there will be towns or yards the benchwork is covered by 1/8" PVC sheeting (sold in 4' x 10' sheets). Scenic backdrops are being added to these areas. They are constructed of 1x2 and 1x3 lumber for the supports with 1/2" rigid styrafoam insulation board being used for the backdrop. Building flats will be added to the backboards to create the city like environments. The curved track areas are constructed out of the 1x4 PVC lumber in a ladder type arrangement again supported by the PVC pipes. The 1x4 PVC lumber bends real easy and curves of desired shape can easily be formed. All of these materials are listed as UV resistant. While this is not a cheap method of construction I do expect it to be solid long after I have expired. I have plenty of photos of what I have constructed so far and I would be happy to share them with anyone who is interested.
Please go to the web site for the Northern Minnesota Railroad Heritage Association: www.northerntrackersrrclub.com. Or, Google Northern Trackers. Go to the Layouts tab and then visit the G scale project.
There are four of us spearheading the project that are 65+. Our main loop is 109', supported on a two pipe system that allows us to vary the height, and if we have frost problems, we can easily adjust the track. We have used the plastic Aztex boards for our main line support that we purchased at Home Depot. The track is fastened to the road bed with plastic wire ties, which allows for expansion and contraction from -30 to 100 degrees.
The main buss lines go around the loop. Every section of track is connected with drop lines. Polarity reversing sections are being installed in a couple of weeks when the weather warms up a bit.
The area between the main line and the first siding will be filled in with plastic boards to support our depot, water tower, coaling station, and diesel fueling station. Those kits were built over the winter months. Eventually there will be a waterfall, and creek flowing under the trestle.
Elevation is our answer to artificial knees, hips, and a couple of shoulders!
Jay Simon: jdsrdlk@gmail.com
Well it depends what you mean by "G"scale... I model in 16mm scale (1:19.1) and Gauge '3' (1:22.6). The former runs on 32mm gauge track and the latter on 63.5mm gauge track. Living in England most of the garden railways exist on elevated "plank on post" layouts. This gives free draining of the track work and also compensated for the lack of large flat expanses.. Here we normally produce a system based on vertical posts with heavy duty "gravel board" or "decking slat" covered with pitch and roofing felt (in windy areas we also nail down the edges of the roofing felt!) . Posts and wood work are normally pressure treated and painted with some form of fencing paint. We don't normally ballast our railways and we normally fix the sleepers to the decking boards with either brass or steel pins.
The oldest surviving setup using this system that I have seen dates from the 1960's and at 86 the builder still gets around just fine! I am approaching 60 and with that in mind I elected to build an elevated system. I have bad knees from playing Rugby -so I can recommend this to you.
regards
ralph
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
Lots of good info on raised layouts. My personal belief is that if you really need to have it elevated, then that is the way you must go. Personally, I'm not big on creating scenery, and it is hard to do on an elevated railroad anyway. For that reason mine is on the ground where the scenery is already there. My present railroad is about 10 years old, and I'm presently 77. While it is a little hard to get back up from being on my knees, I do not see raising my railroad in the foreseeable future. I have a mainline over 480' long plus a number of sidings. For me, the cost and effort to raise this railroad would be prohibitive.
Just another view on the subject.
Ed
Let me throw my hat in the ring as well. First a little background on me. I am in my sixth decade and my career has been in mechanical engineering/design. I have lived in the northeast and the southeast (current location). From an engineers perspective many of the suggestions bear review and here is mine to add to the confusion. My pike will be built as follows.
Posts will be 3" Schedule 40 electrical conduit (the gray UV resistant stuff. They will be buried a minimum of 6" below the local frost line. (This statement is to ease conversion to wherever you are located.) The post will be plumbed, suspended above the bottom of the hole (allowing the concrete to flow below and up into the post encasing it) and secured with a sloppy mix of concrete (pre bagged) with and additional amount of pure Portland cement for additional strength. The post will be cut short of the required height by some (as yet not determined) amount to allow for a 3" x 2" reducing coupling to be glued to the top of the post. The reducing coupling will have the 2" socket (2.375 diameter inside) drilled through with a hole saw. Into this I will place a piece of 2" schedule 40 gray conduit which will support the sub road bed. I will use a stainless steel hose clamp on the 2" pipe to establish and hole vertical elevation. This will allow for adjustment for any vertical ground motion with out having to do major surgery to the road bed..
The ladder system will be done with a glued up method of pressure treated blocking and multiple layers of 1/4 x 1 1/2 stringers. I know I am going to hear all the warning about sawing pressure treated material. I have a squirrel cage fan from a heating system that resides behind me blowing a substantial amount of air from behind. I have a dust collection system attached to my table saw with a capacity that makes the air whistle through the throat plate of my saw. I am not overly concerned with cutting pressure treated material. Fixtures will be utilized to generate the ladder sections which will be located on the posts. The ladder sections will be attached to the 2" posts using stainless steel screws. I feel this method will provide the smoothest transitions in both horizontal and vertical curvature.
Track sections will be done by attaching two track sections together with Split Jaw Clamps (or similar). Tie strips, with the exception of the tie strips on either side of the rigid coupling, will have all screws removed, allowing the rails to move freely in the tie strips. Jumper wires will be soldered on the outer ends of each 2 track section. Each 2 track section will join with the next using just the standard joiner provided with the track. Conductivity across the sliding joint will be provided by the jumper wiring.
Once the first 2 section track segment is laid (screwing each tie strip to the sub road bed), the next will be joined with a standard rail joiner and gapped to allow for expansion and contraction. The nearer to the hottest, sunniest day you are when laying your track the smaller this gap will need to be. Solder the jumper wires together. Remember, by removing all the tie strip screws and allowing the rail to move you can attach all the tie strips to the road bed.
Turnouts (switches) will be connected with Split Jaws to allow easy removal for replacement or repair.
Bob C.
I am contemplating a raised railway and just came across this post and really like the idea of using PVC. My question is how far apart should the vertical posts be spaced to support the ladder roadbed and prevent any sagging
Chuck
Chuck,
I would have to say that the distance between posts will depend on a number of factors, that you will need to determine. As I mentioned, I will be using glued up ladder sections made from pressure treated material. This material will become fairly rigid after glue up and not sag much. I believe (not tested yet) that I should be able to go to 36" centers with out any problem. Living in Florida, summer heat can be an issue with any plastic material, so utilizing the PVC materials at Home Depot or Lowes has it's drawbacks. The club I am a member of used 2" Sch 40 stanchions with 1/2 x 1 1/2 PVC ladder and blocking. We soon discovered that the PVC had two major issues we hadn't anticipated. First was the amount of sagging we got between posts, even at 24" spacing, and second was the amount of expansion/contraction involved. This is partially what led me to think the PT lumber for the ladder. The club mitigated most of the sagging by building a retaining wall around the layout and back filling up to the ladder road bed. Even with this arrangement, we still get settling/sagging. Oh, and before I forget, how high you are going to build will also affect both the size of the vertical post as well as the spacing.
Another consideration on post spacing will be the curves and equipment you will be running. Adding curvature to the ladder, like making a tube out of paper, strengthens the stringers. The smaller the radius of the curve, the more additional strength you stand to gain. However if you plan to run a USAT Big Boy at 50 pounds plus, closer spacing on posts will be the order of the day. I wish there was a magic formula for all this, but alas, there is not. My best recommendation is to read everything you can - magazines, forums, books, pamphlets, etc. Visit any clubs in your area and chat with the members, get a concensus of what others in your area are doing. What seems to be the greatest thing since sliced bread for one can be the bane of another.
Two other forums that will be of great help are Large Scale Central (www.largescalecentral.com) and My Large Scale (www.mylargescale.com). Great folks on both sites, always willing to answer questions, and if you can master the search features of both sites, there is a wealth of information already available in many, many past posts.
Good luck in your efforts, and Happy Railroading!
I built my elevated spline roadbed out of Trex composite decking planks ripped into 2 inch wide strips, or cedar fence pickets ripped to the same width, with spacer blocks glued between them with carpenter's exterior wood glue. I also used the longest Torx screws I could find driven in from both sides.
This has been in the hot Arizona sun for 3 years with no apparent sagging or expansion/contraction problems.
My self would like mine on the ground until I hit a void or river.
Good to know Trigg is still here and Vic "The Man" Smith !!! Been long time fellers
Old
Cacole,
i think I like the idea of using cedar. So how far apart are your vertical supports, since you have ladder roadbed built out of some cedar and some Trex?
Chucka Cacole, So how far apart are your vertical supports, since you have ladder roadbed built out of some cedar and some Trex? Chuck
So how far apart are your vertical supports, since you have ladder roadbed built out of some cedar and some Trex?
Greetings,
Just read your post concerning roadbed elevation. Any photos of the attachment of the bed to the PVC supports would be greatly appreciated, along with any other photos or advice you can possibly share. Also I am in San Diego, any hints on the availability of the PVC lumber, can the TREX product be ripped?
im trying to gather as much info as possible in building my elevated roadbed. Familiar with the ladder technique and would be extremely grateful if you could post some pictures of your work and construction techniques. could you comment on your supply source for the pvc lumber materials. I'm having a difficult time locating anything other than the TREX BRAND decking. Thanks a million..
Hudson, you replied to a 2 year old post, and I'm not sure which of the people in the post you are referring to, I think even one of them has passed away.
Tom and I are in San Diego, and yes Trex is expensive.
There are many things you can make and elevates system from, like the poly lawn edging, but sunlight will make stuff expand, so if it's buried in the ground away from direct sunlight will make a difference.
Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
IF I ever move I've thought of a dogbone made of landscape blocks. I used them on my current one when I expanded, but only 2-3 high, then backfilled. 20' curves on the ends. Now that I'm too old, I'd hire someone to lay the blocks in, leaving a hole for the skid loader to bring in the backfill, then close it up. Fill it way high and let it set for a few months. Guy in Omaha did one and it came out nice.
Jerry
web site:
http://thescrr.com/
Elevated is also very nice for Live Steam operation if you decide to go that route. Our current railway is about 2 foot off the ground in a raised flower garden. But we plan to build a new line that is elevated in the future, it would co-exhist with the lower line for awhile till I can no longer get down to maintain the lower railway. I am 43 and can manage ok for now, but I know that will not last forever. I also enjoy live steam and want to gradualy transition to using that form of motive power with only the occasiaonal battery powered engine used. Good Luck on the new railway. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month