Brand new here, just bought g scale Aristo craft craft train for kids (maybe more for myself) I have it set up in the house and am thinking of track bed construction. I live in the snow belt of northeastern Ohio and am concerned about frost and heave. I have heard about the ladder system, raised bed, laying it in a trench filled with crusher runs with and without pvc and rebar, etc.
What do you guys believe is the best way in a very cold and snowy environment? I live in a heavily wooded and rocky area and plan to run train over my pond next to a footbridge. A lot of big plans and want to do it right. I like the idea of the trench b/c I would not have to go to deep since the ground is all rock, but the idea of raised bed is nice too. If I raise the bed with ply or deck board how do you keep the ballast in, create some sort of sides?
I will keep the small setup I have running b/c I know these things take time and money. I have the solid brass .332 track and that is what I plan on using throughout.
Any suggestions would be great. Also any ides on the best books to get.
Thanks in advance,
Ed
If I had frost heave issues, I'd make elevated track supported by posts below the frost line. Then you can build soil up around it, for looks, or wooden skirts or open. I'd use ladder roadbed made from synthetic materials.
The rocky soil, the cold and frost heave would convince me not to do anything on the ground. If you were to do it on the ground, just free float in ballast and make sure you have good drainage.
There's 2 suggestions.
Regards, Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
Not haqving much experience (at least in the last 20 years) with frost heave, I would go along with Greg. Post and lattice construction, post below frost line, rails 3~6 inches above ground level. Back fill with crushed stone, and LOTs and LOTs of bridgework. Posts below frost line to support bridge piers and abutments.
Tom Trigg
Welcome a board Ed. We live in the Sierra Nevada north of Lake Tahoe, surrounded by Tahoe National Forest. However our winter and rock conditions are similar to yours. Having lived in California for most of my life I’ve come to the realization that everything moves including the ground. We began building our railroad in the last century on a hillside using the floating system and operate over 400’ of mainline. Here are a couple of hints. Long tangents or straight sections can cause kinks in tracks due to expansion and contraction. Curved tracks sometimes move but usually do not kink. Use the widest or biggest curves they operate and look better. My minimum mainline curves are 10’ diameter, but I use 20’ where possible. My grades are 2.5% max. Keep track level side to side. Switches should be installed on the same plane as the railroad grade and level side to side.
Good luck, have fun, Rob
Did the trench (3-6" deep depending how far down to newspaper) filled with 7mm gyra (crushed rock down there), using homemade tamper made to grade level desired laid track ballasted track with #1 chicken grit. turnouts are left clear of ballast Did this back in 2001 and any extensions planned will be done same !
doug c
s.w. canada
I live in southwestern Ontario and frost heave is common. The ladder system is certainly attractive but is sort of permanent. If you are new to the hobby keep it simple and easy to change. Your layout will grow over time so you will want your layout to be flexible. You hear a lot of people talk about, so see if you can visit someone who has such a system and get first hand info. Regards, Dennis.
I have never built a permanent outdoor layout so if you want to stop reading now I won't be offended. I HAVE built a temporary layout on the ground and read a ton of material on this subject over the past 8 years in gathering information for when I am able to begin my permanent layout.
The suggestions herein are all valid and seem to be what most garden railroaders use. The method of floating your track in a ballasted roadbed built up from a trench seems the best way to START. I say start because if you are like most hobbyists, the layout will beckon for changes not too long after you start running trains and/or visit some other layouts in your area or wherever. Greg is technically accurate (he usually always is) in that installing posts below the frost line may minimize the vertical impact of frost heave, but it won't stop lateral movement cause by surface shifting. Your "elevated" bed (disguised by building up dirt and ballast underneath) may still shift depending on the severity of the frost effect. That you have a lot of rock in your soil may limit that effect, but also will make installation of the posts a bit more challenging.
The floating-track-in-ballasted-roadbed method is quite similar to how the prototype is designed. It is however, quite different from any concept you have ever had about model railroad track laying and maintenance. The track is outdoors 365 days a year and subject to the effects of nature: weather, critters, and plant life. An outdoor layout requires continual care and checking so that your track remains clear of debris, is level side-to-side, and remains relatively flat along the run, except where you deliberately install grades.
If you plan to build a more elaborate pike right from the start, then the post-and-ladder method may be right for you but do not underestimate the need for that to be installed very carefully. I have seen firsthand the results of quick-and-dirty installations where the posts settle and the ladder develops uneven spots. That is *much* more difficult to correct than free-floating track in ballast.
When free-floating track (in ballast) becomes uneven (and it eventually will), you simply take you handy-dandy track level gauge (there are a variety of tools you can use - both homemade/adapted, or commercially made just for our hobby), measure the trouble spot, lift the track with your hands and scoop more ballast underneath. You put in more ballast than necessary then tamp/jiggle the track down gently on top of the ballast until it is level again per the measuring gauge. You can often eyeball when its level along the run, but side-to-side is critical and is best checked with a small level or track tool as described above. A piece of 2x4 wood with a bubble level stuck on top can work in a pinch. The guys I know who use this method keep a bucket of ballast nearby the garden at all times. In the bucket along with the ballast material they keep a small scoop and an old large (4 inch) paintbrush to smooth out/re-shape the ballast after it's scooped on and the track leveled. Most corrections only take a few minutes to do using this method.
From what I have witnessed, read, and been told, correcting uneveness in a post-and-ladder system usually requires disassembly of the track and re-installation of the post(s) and ladder sections where the settling/uneveness occurred.
Food for thought. Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress.
Thanks to everyone for the replies. Very Very informative. It seems that for my first and probably ever evolving layout I will go with the trench method and deal with the heave in the springtime. I have my dad pretty darn excited about this and he is always coming up with ideas, ex civil engineer. Can't wait for spring to measure out the area that I plan on building.
Thanks agaiin for all of the info.
Ed,
Where in Northern Ohio do you live. I live close to the Akron area, so our weather conditions should be identical.
If you are not familiar with the NOGRS (Northern Ohio Garden Railroad Socieity) you might consider checking them out. ( http://www.nogrs.org ) We have monthly meeting at the different members locations, so that way you get to look at what others in the area are doing.
With that said, I use the trench method in which I dug down about 2 inches, put weed barrier cloth down, then #8 limestone. I currently have close to 1,000 feet laid in that fashion. That's not saying it's the best method, but works for me. If you choose Post & Lattice, or one of the other above ground supports, you will need to put the post down a good 3-4 feet. I have some roadbed ballast supports, which are held in place by spikes that are only maybe 8-10 inches down and each spring I have to pound them back down in the ground. Oh ya, one other thing about mounting it on the ground. If you have dear roaming around, like I have, expect some track damage as time goes on. I had to replace 2 pieces of track this past spring from them stepping on it.
You can also do Concrete. I'm not sure how that will hold up in N. Ohio, but I'll be finding out as I put down about 30 feet this past spring as a test. Of course it's about a foot under snow and ice now, so guess I'll have to wait another month to check out how it's fairing.
Regards,
Mark
http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com
M. Gilger - President and Chief Engineer MM&G web
Web Site: http://mmg-garden-rr.webs.com/
+I see you have a little puppy. Looks like a blue Wimerriner(sp). I do HO, which I am building now, but I really like Garden. My wife said she would kill me! I have a perfect spot for it. I have a liner pond With landscape that I could really do something neat with. But... Hows the puppy doing? I have a 11/2 yr old Dobbie(#6) that is a BRUTE! I know I'm getting older but, when we play, there's always blood. Mine! Phil from Hinckley
Phil,
The puppy is not a puppy any longer. He's 5 years old now, but still thinks he's a puppy. He's not a blue, but a regular "Gray" Wiem. We have owned Wiems now for maybe 25 years and usualy have 3 at any one time, although currently we only have 1 plus a Labradoodle. The labradoodle for some reason changed from a blond color when she was a puppy, to the same "Gray" as the Weim. She's actually a few inches taller, but 10 pounds lighter than the Weim. So that's the story.
My friends in the Indiana Large Scale Railroader's suggest three ideas:
1. Quick and easy: a thick bed of mulch with the track laid on top. Landscape as wanted.
2. Shallow (2-3") trench with limestone chips/dust (leftovers from crushing) filling trench and covering the ties (just like the real thing). The chips and dust compact and "solidify" unless the edges are disturbed (hence the trench) holding the track nicely.
3. Two inch foam board cut to desired width. Fasten the track to the board and connect the lengths to the form of your plan. Landscape as needed.
trainlsa86 1. Quick and easy: a thick bed of mulch with the track laid on top. Landscape as wanted.
I'd be careful with the mulch. It will move around a lot, leaving an unsteady base.
Thanks to everyone who has replied. I think I am going with digging the trench and filling with the crushed stone, tamping and laying track. Way to much rock around here to di any deeper.
Thanks again,
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