Lionel Gscale 4-4-2's

[ondrek]

I just purchased one of these and I am wondering what people think of its quality and such. The engine was put of production way before i got into the hobby. I have a few 4-4-2's in HO and I really like the engine so when i found one for Gscale I had to have it, not knowing much of the quality. It seems to be ok, i was dissapointed in the fact that it has plastic wheels in the trucks, and the the valve gear is actually chromed plastic. other than that I think its pretty good. I am considering converting it to Battery and the tender is very roomy and completly empty, thats a plus. and there are a few places i can soder power wires to the engine to simplify conectivity, thats another plus.

My question is, does anyone else have one of these and or are they any good at all before i invest the time and money into getting it to be battery and possibly RC compatable?

thanks

Kevin

[Anonymous]

I took a shot of this Lionel Atlantic while visiting someone's garden railway. It looks nice but at that very moment was limping along, apparently suffering from some sort of gear issues.

If yours runs OK, keep it lubricated and assign it to light duty. You have to admit, they are beauties, but...

Regards,
Bill C.

[Anonymous]

Hi ondrek
My knowledge of Lionel is limited to Lionel being Americas Hornby in other words a toy train manufacturer that in the past had a good reputation.
Like all modern companys even those known for quality they will use some plastics in thier product .
Even LGB have gone to plastic coupling rods and use some plastic wheels on thier locomotives.
I cannot say any more than if the power plant is good then changing wheels for metal ones is not hard making new coupling rods could be a pain but is possable
My initial thoughs are if it works leave it alone untill you can judge for yourself if it is worth taking the time to make it the way you want it.
regards John

[Curmudgeon]

How badly do you want your bubble burst?
Gear problems.
I know folks who remove the lead and trail trucks so they will stay on the track.
Solid drivers (spokes molded on).
Scale is iffy at 1:32 (depends on what part of what prototypes you use, if I recall), used to be an issue, but with 1:32 stuff coming out more often, not so much now.
Virtually no parts (altho every once in a while Lionel finds another box).
I have converted some to battery r/c, run okay. Tender has enough room.
Don't overload the motor/gears, lube periodically, and it should be okay.
That comment on limping aong with gear issues strikes a chord.
TOC

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

How badly do you want your bubble burst?
Gear problems.
I know folks who remove the lead and trail trucks so they will stay on the track.
Solid drivers (spokes molded on).
Scale is iffy at 1:32 (depends on what part of what prototypes you use, if I recall), used to be an issue, but with 1:32 stuff coming out more often, not so much now.
Virtually no parts (altho every once in a while Lionel finds another box).
I have converted some to battery r/c, run okay. Tender has enough room.
Don't overload the motor/gears, lube periodically, and it should be okay.
That comment on limping aong with gear issues strikes a chord.
TOC

Oh, I guess, I puchased a midranged unit then, its the version that has the rail sounds and such. My plan is for it to pull the three bachmann coaches i have. in the future, i may build a few coaches, I like the short coaches more than the long ones i have now. so it definatly wont be pulling a long set of cars. my layout will not have any climbs, so that should be good for it too. also i am limited to a 9'x16' area, so how large could my layout be anyhow?
Gear problems, not what i really wanted to hear.
What do you suggest to lube it with?

as far as scale, it sure appears to be 1:20ish. I have set my bachmann figures on it and they fit just fine, they are not too tall, infact they are the same size as the figures that came with the lionel. but i honestly dont know how large the proto is and how the lionel scales to it, all i know is that its about the same size as the bachamann 4-6-0 that we have from a starter set, (i hate that engine). I have a Marklin 2-6-0 that is 1:32, its much smaller than either the 4-6-0 or the lionel 4-4-2. the marklin is my long hauler, it pulls like no tomorrow. I've had it pull the three coaches, two 40' box cars, two 40' flat beds with wood and it runs very smooth. I know that thats only 7 cars, but on a layout that fits in my box, thats a long string.

So, if i keep the gear lubed, and run it easy, i should be in good shape right? its more of a "toy" train than a modler train right? thats what i've been told of my marklin too, but I can live with that since the marklin is all metal and i like it a lot.

Thanks for the help, I look forward to having my layout down permantly and getting some use of the 4-4-2.

Kevin

[ondrek]

I will post some pics of it when i get every thing running some day here.

http://www.vermontel.net/~kevin_ondre/4-4-2/4-4-2_rightfront.jpg


Kevin

[Anonymous]

Hey Kevin, it looks good in Pennsy livery, which is really proper for that particular locomotive prototype. For gear lube go to a hobby shop and get something that is appropriate for plastic.

I am curious about how much you paid for this locomotive.

Regards,
Bill C.

[ondrek]

that pic is from the previous owner, it is not my layout at all. it is the engine though.
I hate to say how much i paid, i dont need to be told that i over paid, i dont know if i did or not, just dont need to find out that i might have.

The engine is in great shape, the sound station works and all too. chuff sounds and steam whistle are fine by my standards.

I purchased it solely because the 4-4-2's interest me. I am not as dedicated to the hobby as most are. I get what i like, i mix and match what i like, i dont pay attention to the rules of reality, the "hey, you cant run that engine in that geography or location that you modled, it wouldnt be there." just doesnt apply. My wife and I are going to make a layout that we like and we are not going to pay attention to what should be there or shouldnt. infact I may remove the "Pensylvania" off the tender, we wont be modeling after a paticular area of the country. we dont even pay attention to the scales, we have the marklin, a 1:32 scale pull the bachmann cars of 1:20, we just put the flat cars first and then latter on the box cars and then the passenger cars last so you dont notice the large difference in height between the cab of the engine to the height of the pass. cars.


We are taking the same approach with our HO layout. the only restriction that we are doing is that it will be a rural VT layout, real small town, mostly farming and a town green. But again we are going to have a 4-4-2 that looks much like the Gscale one i have pic'ed. did a 4-4-2 ever run in VT? who knows, and i dont really care, it will in our layout, and thats the same approach we are taking to the garden layout.

How much did i pay? well more than 200, i will let you know that.

I just hope that it runs well and lasts if i care for it, if it does, then what ever i did pay will be worth it.
Thanks for the info for the gear lube. I will be sure to pick some up.

Kevin

[Anonymous]

Kevin, I admire that locomotive. They operated in South Jersey (southern New Jersey, for those not familiar with our local vernacular) where I live and could really high-step it on the way to Atlantic City in the old days.

I was just curious what they cost in the event I ever come across one. Best wishes for many happy years and enjoyment with your Atlantic. If I were you, I would keep the locomotive exactly the way it is since it is more than likely that this model will ever be made again.

Regards,
Bill C.

[Curmudgeon]

Yes, those who keep them lubed have good success if they don't overload it.
That 4-4-2 is a standard gauge loco with Belpaire Firebox, and the 1:20 stuff from Bachmann is narrow gauge.
That engine is smaller than a Bachmann narrow-gauge 4-4-0.
The sound system is interesting. I don't know if they upgraded ay any point late in the run, but there used to be warnings on Aristo controls not to use them with Lionel.
Burns the sound system out, if I recall.
I am able to tie into them and trigger them by r/c, but the voltage board gets removed to do it.
Let's just say it's a D-16 class PRR, not an E.
Length of the engine without cab overhang is 34'. In 1:20 that's 20 and a tad inches long.
In 1:32, it's 12 and 3/4".
In 1:29 it's 14 and a tad.
What's yours?
D-16 drivers are 68 or 80" (2 versions).
TOC

[Anonymous]

Hi ondrek
Sounds like the advise you need is coming in.
Don't quote me on this but I think if you do a bit of investigation you will find it should be bigger than The Marklin loco I know the UK has a smaller loading gauge, but I also think a lot of Europe has a smaller loading gauge than the US as well
regards John

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen Lionel is dead, why carry on I am telling you this because i know all about it , I am here withe my father in law and he told me

Love Allison

[Curmudgeon]

Allison-
It ain't dead, as the stuff is still out there.
The problem was Kughn looked around and saw money to be made without thinking it through.
The carrythrough of the stuff was abysmal.

Bet that as it may, the person posting has one, and we are just giving tips on how to keep it going.
I gave the measurements for an older D-16 class, now I'll give E6s class:

Loco length, tip of pilot to cab buffer, in1:20.3 is 23".
In 1:32, it's 14 and about 9/16".
In 1:29, it's 16" and a tad.

Drivers were 80", in 1:20.3 that's almost 4". Four Inches, folks.
In 1:32, it's 2.5", which is closer.
In 1:29, it's 2-3/4".

So, give us you measurements and we'll see what's closest in scale.

I have more measurements if you'd like.
TOC

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chestnut226

Kevin, I admire that locomotive. They operated in South Jersey (southern New Jersey, for those not familiar with our local vernacular) where I live and could really high-step it on the way to Atlantic City in the old days.

I was just curious what they cost in the event I ever come across one. Best wishes for many happy years and enjoyment with your Atlantic. If I were you, I would keep the locomotive exactly the way it is since it is more than likely that this model will ever be made again.

Regards,
Bill C.

Bill-
Ok, well, i will let you know that you can find these every once and a while on Ebay. I am not encouraging Ebay, just mentioning it. and, well, thats where i got mine actually. i got it a few months back, and all i have done is test run it.

So if you are interested in one, and cant seem to find one anywhere else, try there. mind you the going price varies a lot. it seems to depend on the type, either the NYC one, cheapest, to the one i got, seems to be the most expensive. I got this one because it was the exact same as my 4-4-2 HO that i built up. I like the head lamp to be up high, not right out the front on the boiler door like it is on the NYC version.

Good luck finding one.

Kevin

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon


Bet that as it may, the person posting has one, and we are just giving tips on how to keep it going.
I gave the measurements for an older D-16 class, now I'll give E6s class:

Loco length, tip of pilot to cab buffer, in1:20.3 is 23".
In 1:32, it's 14 and about 9/16".
In 1:29, it's 16" and a tad.

Drivers were 80", in 1:20.3 that's almost 4". Four Inches, folks.
In 1:32, it's 2.5", which is closer.
In 1:29, it's 2-3/4".

So, give us you measurements and we'll see what's closest in scale.

I have more measurements if you'd like.
TOC

Curmudgeon-
I will try to remember to measure the engine tomorrow at work as that is where it it being kept for now. I am not too concerned with its actual scale size and acuracy, all i know is that the figures made by bachmann are the exact same size as the ones that came with the lionel.

the engine is more than 2' long including the tender. that i do know.
Kevin

[Anonymous]

Some parts are available from Lionel. The problem with the gears is not related to them but the method of holding the motor in position, a plastic pull tie. Replace this with two slightly larger pull ties and wedge the motor, which is a very good Pittman motor, so that the gear and worm mesh properly. I bought mine used about 10 years ago and since owning it, I've put about 1.5 million scale miles on it without a problem. Normally it pulled 7 passenger cars around the layout in my store window 6 days a week 8 to 10 hrs. a day. BTW when you remove the cover to replace the motor mount, be prepaired to catch the brushes that will fly out when they pass the wheel flaange. Replace the springs behind the brusnes with Aristo-Craft springs as the Lionel springs are too small and will lose their tention and over heat causing jerking or worse on the streight track. BTW, I still have 2 new ones ready to go. Also I've pulled 15 freight cars with mine and it showed no loss of power, if I had a larger layout I could have pulled more. Battery Power sucks! There are two wells under the boiler for lead weights, origionally used in the Chesse model and are no longer available, I usggest that you cast your own and they can be about an inch taller than the wells.

[ondrek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tom the RR guy

Some parts are available from Lionel. The problem with the gears is not related to them but the method of holding the motor in position, a plastic pull tie. Replace this with two slightly larger pull ties and wedge the motor, which is a very good Pittman motor, so that the gear and worm mesh properly. I bought mine used about 10 years ago and since owning it, I've put about 1.5 million scale miles on it without a problem. Normally it pulled 7 passenger cars around the layout in my store window 6 days a week 8 to 10 hrs. a day. BTW when you remove the cover to replace the motor mount, be prepaired to catch the brushes that will fly out when they pass the wheel flaange. Replace the springs behind the brusnes with Aristo-Craft springs as the Lionel springs are too small and will lose their tention and over heat causing jerking or worse on the streight track. BTW, I still have 2 new ones ready to go. Also I've pulled 15 freight cars with mine and it showed no loss of power, if I had a larger layout I could have pulled more. Battery Power sucks! There are two wells under the boiler for lead weights, origionally used in the Chesse model and are no longer available, I usggest that you cast your own and they can be about an inch taller than the wells.

I am pretty new, so forgive me of my ignorance...
I need to remove the boiler and replace the plastic pull tie...when i open up the motor casing, i have to watch for the flying brushes. those are the small pins that rub the wheels for electric pick up right? and the springs you mention are the ones that create the tension for those pins to rub the wheels right?

you mention that battery power sucks, and then you go on talking about two wells under the boiler. what does the wells wich could be filled for weight have to do with battery power? i dont understand the connection. and why do you say battery power sucks?

i havent actually run the engine yet, just on a test string wich was all straight track, but i forsee that this engine will be able to negotiate 4' dia. turns right?

Kevin

[Curmudgeon]

I am certainly happy to hear that they run so good out of the box....you only need to re-tie the motors and cast your own weights.

I am also certain that the folks with failed units will be glad to hear theirs did not fail, and Barry's Big Trains won't get anymore calls from people wanting him to upgrade the chassis....with those plastic centered wheels you can't tie new axles into....


This almost reminds me of the folks who claimed a certain K wasn't derailment prone.....until we found out it WASN'T....since they'd had it fixed.......

Take care of them and they work, but, like with all Lionel engines (back to pre-war), ALWAYS have a back-up.

TOC

[Anonymous]

Hi Kevin, the comment about battery power was for Dave, he likes it I don't. The reason is I like to run my trains for long periods of time. You are correct the motor mount pull tab is under the boiler but it is a wise idea to remove the pick up brushes and springs and expose the wires to the pick ups so that they don't get broken. As I said you should change the springs for the pick up brushes, correcr again, the ones that rub against the wheels. The wells were origionally used to hold lead weights, which appeared in early production models, I think only the Chesse version. It is aa good idea to add weight to improve traction to most locomotives. Lionel's supply of the lead weights that they manufactured are long gone. It's has been a while but I think they are agout 2" sq. by about 1 1/2'" deep infront of and behind the motor. Right out of the box, they run very well, but like all things made by man they tend to ware out in places. They are no better or worse than any mass produced loco, they all have their quirks. Lionel is difficult to do business with at best unless you go for the program that they sauggest. Their parts book is aroung $200.00 and most dealers forgo the expense, like me but there is an after market parts book from Greenberg's (pub.) that has a description and drawing of some of their "G" scale productgs with part numbers. Lionel publishes a parts catalog of on hand parts once a year. Working with both of these will allow you to find parts. Last time I ordered couplers, they were out of stock, so I ordered the parts to make couplers and started making couplers. My intention was to help, not belittle your purchase, If you like it, buy it, with a little help from the folks here and at other boards you can make almost any loco a better loco. Try this page for more information: http://www.girr.org/girr/index.html
Also check at some live chats: http://www.largescalecentral.com and http://www.mylargescale.com/
I hope I have answered your questions, best wishes, Tom
ps there are several ways to contact me listed feel free to do so, I keep my IM accounts open all the time so as to receive messages while away, if you get no response leave your e-mail or phone #

[Anonymous]

Kevin, sorry I missed the point about the curves, yes it will turn a 4' diamerer circle. However the overhang at the cab roof is quite a bit, watch your clearences.

[TonyWalsham]

Tom,

You said.

QUOTE: Battery Power sucks!

Can you detail the experience you have and R/C equipment you have used that would lead you to such a conclusion?

I have a Bachmann 0-4-0ST with R/C batteries and Sierra sound that will run 6 hours + with just the on-board batteries.
Plug in an external battery pack in a trail car and the run time can be anything you want.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Curmudgeon]

Hey, don't confuse him with facts, Tony!
TOC

[Anonymous]

Hi Tony, just kidding Dave, fore the way that I run my treains it is not practical and I suspect it also applies to others. Just a reminder that one size does not fit all.

[Anonymous]

Hi Tony, just a reminder that one size does not fit all. Different strokes for different folks, Nothing is etched in stone, etc.

[Curmudgeon]

It's not?
That's not what they taught me in The Navy...........

And Moses sure knew better.........

TOC

[Anonymous]

Curmudgeon, It is Nicholas

[Anonymous]

I am on here right now. while you are reading it. Answer please

[TonyWalsham]

Tom,
From your answer I take it that you have never tried battery R/C in your situation using good quality batteries and R/C equipment..

I can understand that you believe battery power may not be suitable for the way you operate, but you never know, it could be.
If you formed your opinion of battery power based on what you have heard from others I respectfully suggest you actually have experience before you make a blanket statement like "Battery Power Sucks".
Not all the information you get secondhand may be true.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[ondrek]

Well,
I have a lot of information to use regarding my 4-4-2. I hope i can make good use of it. I would like to see this engine run smooth for a while. but after seeing that USA trains 0-6-0 P-6 steam, I would be willing to sell many things to get one of those. the price tag is just beyond my grasp for now.

I have just started to clear the junk from the corner of where my layout will be, once i have it set up, i will let you guys know what i think of that 4-4-2.

If i get the time this winter, i will re-do the motor mount with the plastic tie, not sure if i will fill the wells, depends on how easy that is to get to. RC, I dont know if i will go that route. it would be nice. sure would make track design easier, no worries on reversing loops and such, plus i wont need to worry about the conductivit of the track. I will need to spend some time on the RC forum. my problem is i dont have anyone in the local area that runs RC that i know of and i am one of those who will need the whole package, i dont like to bash different components together. I used to do that with computers, but this is different, this is new territory to me.

Kevin

[Curmudgeon]

Nicolas-

I was working...I hit the boards when I can.
I don't know what to do.
I sent those photos three times to the e-mail address you gave me, never bounced back.
I think Algore intercepted them.
Anyway, if I have a little time tonight I'll try to download them to MLS.
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